Homosexuality Or Legalism--Which Is Worse?

[tv1a]

Not a problem. The legalist in me wanting to keep the post because I knew what I meant and poohbah everyone who sees it different. My problem in doing that was I realize when I applied my principle of not deliberately hurting innocent parties I had no choice but to remove the post.

In my life principle trumps loopholes.

Originally Posted by pelathais

Thank you. Do as you feel best. Again, none of the individuals involved in the account that I gave above were ever involved in anything other than what I described. Just wanting to be clear.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Is that what I asked you? Didn't I just ask you one question? Allow me to ask you again.

Rev 20:12

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS."


Rev 20:13

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS."

If the final outcome will be according to not only a "work" singular, but works plural. Would you so kindly show us what those works may be?

Wow, I never read that before. You tell me. What "works" could any of us possibly have done that are good enough to impress God and force Him to accept us into His kingdom?

What are you going to do? What are you going to tell Him at that time?

[tv1a]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Wow, I never read that before. You tell me. What "works" could any of us possibly have done that are good enough to impress God and force Him to accept us into His kingdom?

What are you going to do? What are you going to tell Him at that time?

I kept my elbows covered.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by "GL"

And if not we become obsessed. We become accusers. We become motivated by wounds and hurts - something very different from love.

Eventually, we ourselves end up as the spear throwers.

Very true! And woah! This made me sit straight up in my seat!

I had a dream Sunday afternoon that woke me up with a start! I was dreaming that one of the posters here had just written a post where he said ..... "As for me, I could never live in isolation!"

I answered him (in my dream) writing ..... "David had to live in a cave for a while to hide from a spear thrower!"

Amazing!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Of course one has to repent, but not in the sense that repentance becomes a work that we do. Repentance is a "change of mind" concerning self and sin, and is the direct result of the work of the Spirit. The very fact that Paul says salvation is "not as a result of works" but a gift in Ephesians 2:8[ESV] eliminates any perception that repentance or baptism is considered a "work" of the flesh. Rather it is a "response" of the flesh to the Spirit's work in the life of a believer.

When Paul speaks about the earning work in Eph 2:8 he is speaking about the Law of Moses and that not one Jew could earn their way to perfection in God, and therefore obtian salvation. In Acts 2:37 those Jews were pricked in their hearts and were compelled to ask men and Brothers what shall we DO.
The "doing" is the by product of God moving upon the heart to bring conviction and the fruit is through obidience. When Paul writes in Eph 2:8 he is reminding the reader that the Law minus Christ will never allow anyone to obtian salvation.

John the Baptist understood this all very well when he said..

Mat 3:7-9

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? BRING FORTH therefore FRUITS meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."


John's warning to the physical Jews was that they needed to present the fruits of their repentance, and that they could not just say that they were saved because of race entitlement.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

The difference between your mindset and mine, is that you believe I have to repent, have to be baptized, have to get the gift of the Holy Ghost

TB, are you saying that an individual doesn't HAVE TO repent and be water baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost? (didn't we go roudn and round last year, or was two years ago?)

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

and have to be holy. I believe I get to repent, get to be baptized, and get to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and get to be holy, all because of God's amazing grace! And it all began when I believed the Gospel.

TB, what do you think about the Agnostic Carlton Pearson's doctrine?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Wow, I never read that before.

Pelathais, don't do that with me, please it's late over here on the East Coast and all I wanted was an answer from a one line question.

Originally Posted by pelathais

You tell me. What "works" could any of us possibly have done that are good enough to impress God and force Him to accept us into His kingdom?

How about you explain the scripture. We don't need to get philosophical.

Originally Posted by pelathais

What are you going to do? What are you going to tell Him at that time?

I'm going to tell Him that I read the Bible, you're going to tell Him that you read Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Is that what I asked you? Didn't I just ask you one question? Allow me to ask you again.

Rev 20:12

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS."


Rev 20:13

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS."

If the final outcome will be according to not only a "work" singular, but works plural. Would you so kindly show us what those works may be?


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I have always understood these verses to refer to a judgment that falls at the end of the Millennial Kingdom and relates to those who died without Christ, and those who were alive coming out of the Millennial Kingdom and who would be judged according to their works during that period. This is after the Second Resurrection.

The First Resurrection has already taken place and those who have been saved prior to the First Resurrection would have had their destiny already determined, or they wouldn't have gone up in the rapture. They have returned with Christ and ruled and reigned with Him on earth for a thousand years.

Do I misunderstand this passage?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Legalism is the spiritual equivelent of situational ethics. Legalists consistently look for loopholes when an application of principle rules out participating in an activity near and dear to them.

That's not legalism. That's an inconsistancy, or a double standard or hypocrisy. Again what you are doing is not giving a definition. You are giving an example, but even a non-legalist can look for loopholes under the same circumstances. A Legalist by definition is a strict adherence to the letter of the law and salvation by works

Legalists look down on others for not holding the similar opinions.

Again a non-legalist can do that too. This is not a definition of a legalist. This just tells me what a legalist or any person can do. Heterosexuals can do this. Liberals can do this.

A legalist denies conflicting principles and makes up new principles to justify an position. Legalists live off another generation's principles as long as it falls within the realm of their agenda.

Again you are not giving a definition, you certainly aren't using the dictionary definition of the word. Really what you have been doing is ignoring my points and just listing more examples.

People who take offense to the term legalism automatically assume it is an attack on standards. That is not the case. Legalism is a definition coined by others to describe rules based salvation combined with selectively applying principles when one wants a certain rule to change.

Wrong. Legalism is a word that signifies a strict adherence to the letter of the law AND that one can be justfied by their works. All the other stuff you seem to be adding. Anyone can selectively apply principles and not be a legalist (strict adherence to the letter of the law and salvation by works)

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

When Paul speaks about the earning work in Eph 2:8 he is speaking about the Law of Moses and that not one Jew could earn their way to perfection in God, and therefore obtian salvation. In Acts 2:37 those Jews were pricked in their hearts and were compelled to ask men and Brothers what shall we DO.
The "doing" is the by product of God moving upon the heart to bring conviction and the fruit is through obidience. When Paul writes in Eph 2:8 he is reminding the reader that the Law minus Christ will never allow anyone to obtian salvation.

John the Baptist understood this all very well when he said..

Mat 3:7-9

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? BRING FORTH therefore FRUITS meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."


John's warning to the physical Jews was that they needed to present the fruits of their repentance, and that they could not just say that they were saved because of race entitlement.




TB, are you saying that an individual doesn't HAVE TO repent and be water baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost? (didn't we go roudn and round last year, or was two years ago?)



TB, what do you think about the Agnostic Carlton Pearson's doctrine?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Perhaps we're talking past one another. I don't disagree that repentance and baptism is something we do, and I agree that both are the result of the Spirit's work in the life of a believer. However, I still believe Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8 make it very clear that salvation can never be the result of our works. Works is something one does to earn something. Repentance and baptism is not something we do to earn something. They are acts of obedience, not works meant to earn salvation.

The difference in understanding of this point is very significant in determining how one views their relationship with God. For example, when you understand this as I do, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is not a requirement I'm trying to meet, but the gift I get to receive because I am the son of God. (Gal.4:6)

BTW, I don't follow Carlton Pearson at all, so I can't comment on his doctrine.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Of course one has to repent, but not in the sense that repentance becomes a work that we do. Repentance is a "change of mind" concerning self and sin, and is the direct result of the work of the Spirit. The very fact that Paul says salvation is "not as a result of works" but a gift in Ephesians 2:8[ESV] eliminates any perception that repentance or baptism is considered a "work" of the flesh. Rather it is a "response" of the flesh to the Spirit's work in the life of a believer.

The difference between your mindset and mine, is that you believe I have to repent, have to be baptized, have to get the gift of the Holy Ghost and have to be holy. I believe I get to repent, get to be baptized, and get to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and get to be holy, all because of God's amazing grace! And it all began when I believed the Gospel.

You get to repent? So if you don't take God up on that generous offer that you get to repent, are you still saved?

For what it's worth, I don't see where the bible ever presents repentance or believing as something we GET to do. It is not optional. Nor do I believe repentance is a work. Does the bible define works as "anything we can do"?