Christmas is pagan

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The video I posted seems to cast doubt on much of your reasoning. I'd like your input on it.

The argument used is:

Premise 1: Pagans did X
Premise 2: Christians do Y (which is not X, but has some similarities to X)
Conclusion: Therefore Christians should not do Y

Besides the fact the argument is a straw man (the second premise is not what I am saying), this argument has been addressed and debunked already, in this thread. The second premise is false. I have provided plenty of documentation showing that Y is in fact a modern evolution of X, that it is an attempted repurposing of X, that Y is a syncretism between pagan idolatry and Christianity, and that all three are forbidden by Scripture.

The same source also posted a defense of Halloween, using essentially the same argument:

[Esaias]

Here's a defense of "icons" in worship. You can almost hear the serpent's hiss, by the way. Note carefully the core of the argument, that icon use is not idolatry or pagan, because they represent spiritual realities of God. This is IDENTICAL to the claims that have been made in this thread and practically every other Christmas thread on the forum: that the evergreen tree and the day itself are symbols representing Gospel truths. Never mind that is exactly what idols are, symbols that represent the supposed divine realities...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1. Your line of reasoning allows for veneration of statues and icons of saints. Such veneration is called "worship of idols" unless the statues are Christian saints, then it is claimed to be done in honor to God, a matter of "what is in the heart."

No.

Where did I say WORSHIP JESUS with trees and gifts? Where did Paul say use the food offered to idols and offer it to God, instead? You overlooked the fact that food offered to idols was a religious rite and Paul said you can take it and eat it as meat, and I never said nor did Paul, anything about instead offering the same in a religious rite to God.

But I agree with you that most believers DO use trees and gift giving in worship to God. And they need to stop. Just use them as decorations and gifts. Nothing more.

The distinct difference you are overlooking is that Paul is not saying to use pagan issues to WORSHIP GOD, and I never said to do so either. FOOD IS FOOD and is nothing to do with worship.

I do not know why people always resort to the kind of response you give when they are dead opposed to anything Christmas. You assume, and so did the others, that I use Christmas to worship Jesus. No I do not. It is ONLY a gift giving time for me. And what I do is take advantage of those who use it as worship and preach Jesus to them.

Food is only food, and decorations are only decorations and giving gifts is only giving gifts. When you introduce worship into it, then your analogy is correct.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No.

Where did I say WORSHIP JESUS with trees and gifts? Where did Paul say use the food offered to idols and offer it to God, instead? You overlooked the fact that food offered to idols was a religious rite and Paul said you can take it and eat it as meat, and I never said nor did Paul, anything about instead offering the same in a religious rite to God.

But I agree with you that most believers DO use trees and gift giving in worship to God. And they need to stop. Just use them as decorations and gifts. Nothing more.

The distinct difference you are overlooking is that Paul is not saying to use pagan issues to WORSHIP GOD, and I never said to do so either. FOOD IS FOOD and is nothing to do with worship.

I do not know why people always resort to the kind of response you give when they are dead opposed to anything Christmas. You assume, and so did the others, that I use Christmas to worship Jesus. No I do not. It is ONLY a gift giving time for me. And what I do is take advantage of those who use it as worship and preach Jesus to them.

Food is only food, and decorations are only decorations and giving gifts is only giving gifts. When you introduce worship into it, then your analogy is correct.

Dear brother, if you would have read all that I wrote, you would clearly see that your concerns about what I'm doing are unfounded. I addressed the issue of "food is just food" and I even said the same thing about trees sold at a Christmas tree lot! But it seems you missed all that. And, like you said, it seems to be a common occurrence on these forums.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If there is no overt idolatry associated with a piece of food sold in the market, then don't sweat it. If you order Chinese takeout don't fret about whether or not the cook burned some incense and made an offering to Buddha over your meal. However, and this is key, if it is pointed out that paganism is definitely involved, then DO NOT EAT. Why? To avoid even the appearance of countenancing and supporting idolatry.

5. Food sold in a market, and actual rituals of idolatry, are two very different things. A pine tree, even a tree sold at a Christmas tree lot, is just a tree. Just like "Christmas lights" are just stringed lights. Nothing wrong in and of themselves. But observing a pagan holy day, and replicating pagan ACTS OF WORSHIP (idolatrous rituals), using said tree or lights, is a whole nother matter. There is far more to Christmas than a random tree and a random decorating of said tree. It occurs on a particular day, on a yearly basis, for particular (religious) reasons. It is NOT just about home decor.

Suppose one bought food sold in the market place, and replicated the act of offering it in sacrifice to Zeus, as much as possible, so that it was DISTINCTLY the rite of Zeus, but simply said "Jesus" instead of Zeus, would Paul approve of that? Hardly.

Here's what I said about "food is just food".

Also, brother Blume, do you understand the difference between "Your line of reasoning leads to XYZ conclusion" on the one hand, versus "You said XYZ" on the other hand? If you get offended or upset when someone says "your reasoning leads to" some conclusion you do not hold, it is not a personal attack, insult, or attempt to twist what you say. It is an attempt to identify your reasoning and follow it out to its conclusions. If that leads to a place you don't want to go, then either your reasoning was in error, or the other person has misunderstood your reasoning, or they have themselves reasoned in error. The logical response is to demonstrate either of those cases (not just claim it, but show it).

In this exchange, I was pointing out how the reasons you supplied can be consistently used to support veneration of icons and crucifixes. I in no way said YOU support those things (I know you do not).

[Originalist]

Brother Esaias, thank you for pouring your heart out to us through lengthy research on this topic. While my own research leads me to a different conclusion, I appreciate your sincerity and desire to please the Lord in all you do.

[Scott Pitta]

I suppose we could celebrate the birth of Christ on Saint Patricks Day, but somehow it is more fitting to celebrate it at Christmas.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Exodus 31:13 KJV Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 13:6-10 KJV Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD. (7) Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters. (8) And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt. (9) And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt. (10) Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.

Holy Days and religious festivals are a sign, or token, of which god you really worship. If you are keeping the holy days of ancient pagan demons, THAT'S WHO YOU ARE WORSHIPPING. If you have been baptised into Christ, and yet you keep the holy days of satan, you are committing SPIRITUAL FORNICATION, HARLOTRY, and ADULTERY against your Saviour.

The Sabbaths of God were to be FOR A SIGN "upon the hand and ... between the eyes" (forehead) of God's people. It was a mark of ownership, covenant, fealty, loyalty, and belonging.

The holy days were not the target of being a sign on the forehead or hand but rather the entire Law, albeit including days and months and years.

Deu 6:1.. Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:..
Deu 6:2.. That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged...
Deu 6:3.. Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey...
Deu 6:4.. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:..
Deu 6:5.. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might...
Deu 6:6.. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:..
Deu 6:7.. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up...
Deu 6:8.. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes...

But I always wondered why seventh day adventists think Sunday church is the mark of the beast. I guess this is their reasoning. But I know you never made this claim, it's just that your use of the reference must be what they're referring to.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Here's what I said about "food is just food".

Also, brother Blume, do you understand the difference between "Your line of reasoning leads to XYZ conclusion" on the one hand, versus "You said XYZ" on the other hand?

Oh yes, I never missed that. I just disagree my line of reasoning works to that end.

If you get offended or upset when someone says "your reasoning leads to" some conclusion you do not hold, it is not a personal attack, insult, or attempt to twist what you say. It is an attempt to identify your reasoning and follow it out to its conclusions.

My reasoning does not lead to those conclusions. That was what I was stating.

If that leads to a place you don't want to go, then either your reasoning was in error, or the other person has misunderstood your reasoning, or they have themselves reasoned in error. The logical response is to demonstrate either of those cases (not just claim it, but show it).

In this exchange, I was pointing out how the reasons you supplied can be consistently used to support veneration of icons and crucifixes. I in no way said YOU support those things (I know you do not).

I know what you meant. But my point is that my thoughts do not go there because I am not talking about including worship in any way, so icon worship does not fit the concept at all.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Dear brother, if you would have read all that I wrote, you would clearly see that your concerns about what I'm doing are unfounded. I addressed the issue of "food is just food" and I even said the same thing about trees sold at a Christmas tree lot! But it seems you missed all that. And, like you said, it seems to be a common occurrence on these forums.

I did read what you said. I maintain that my thought does not follow through the way you claim it does, since my thought involved the fact that we are not to worship with these things. Worshiping God using icons is worship, which I dislcaimed.