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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #271  
Old 09-04-2017, 09:31 PM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

And in the case of Romans 4:22, most of us just simply interpret this as meaning that God "accounted" it to him . . . attributed, credited, counted it, regarded, or reckoned it to Abraham as righteousness. Not necessarily seen as a mystical transaction of God's righteousness into Abraham.

I mean, that is as far as Romans 4:22 is concerned, and not that in other places there is not some kind of understanding that God imputes something mystical to us in Salvation. I personally believe that through the mystery of imitation, the merits of Messiah's life, death, resurrection and ascension are attributed to us in a mystical way by the Holy Ghost in us, and that this can be understood as a kind of "imputation". And since HE is righteous, HIS dwelling in us brings that Righteousness to us as well. And in that way, Righteousness can be imputed to us. Just, I don't think that is what Paul is saying in Romans 4:22.
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  #272  
Old 09-04-2017, 09:45 PM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Oops. Sorry. I did not mean to say, mystery of Imitation. I meant to say "mystery of Identification".

Imitation is a different, but sometimes closely-related doctrine, but not what I meant to say.
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  #273  
Old 09-04-2017, 11:32 PM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

If I can take a diversion here from the strict question-and-answer routine. Obviously, I know that the Sabbath question is a hotly debated subject within Christianity right now. Perhaps the MOST hotly debated doctrine today. Not just among those of Apostolic persuasion, but in almost every "Evangelical" denomination that I know of, I see this topic being discussed. There are good people, and good arguments on both sides. I know people who agree with the Sabbath even while also continuing to hold to Dispensational ideas, though most who believe in the continuation of God's Sabbath disagree with Dispensationalism. I think I held to a kind of "closet-Sabbatarianism" even back in the day when I myself was a Dispensationalist. But I did not fully open up regarding the Sabbath until after I was finally presented with arguments that questioned Dispensationalism (and by extension the premise of Anomianism).

But for me, it was probably the arguments of Covenant Theology, and it's argument of the Unified Covenant, the Unified Redemptive People, and the concept of Continuity that created for me a theological rationale for a reasonable acceptance of the Sabbath in Christianity. Did the "New" Covenant represent a substantial abrogation of and replacement of the "Old" Covenant? That was the question I wrestled with personally.

For me, you see, all of this came down to a question of the credibility of God as a Covenant-keeping God Whom we can TRUST. Whereas on the human side, we know that we cannot trust ourselves to keep ANY covenant, but the real question was whether or not we can trust God to keep HIS Covenant. This was not a question intended to approach blasphemy, but has always been a legitimate question discussed in fields of Theology. If, as Dispensationalism claims, God can and does so easily discard His former Covenants, and changes up the rules required for Salvation, how can we lay any serious claim to God's credibility? This is the problem Jews are having with Christian theology. In their eyes, the Christian God is capricious, whereas the Jewish God is solid, consistent, and unchanging.

But I, as a Christian, claimed to believe in an unchanging God : Malachi 3:6; Numbers 23:19; James 1:17.

For me, this question began to settle as I began to see Scripture through new, non-dispensational eyes. Covenant Theology helped me at that. I began to see that God WILL NOT VIOLATE HIS COVENANT OR ALTER WHAT HIS LIPS HAVE UTTERED. God's Message has not changed, neither have His Methods.

Psalm 89:34
Psalm 110:4
Isaiah 40:8
Ecclesiastes 3:14
1 Chronicles 16:15
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  #274  
Old 09-05-2017, 12:14 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

With this assurance of the consistency and unchangeableness of God, I could go back and get a fresh perspective on the claims of Scripture to It's own consistency and constancy. I began to understand that The Covenant of God is FOREVER, intended to exist for ALL Generations, and It shall NEVER pass away.

1 Chronicles 16:15
Ecclesiastes 3:14
Psalm 89:34
Psalm 110:4
Psalm 117:1-2
Isaiah 40:8
Isaiah 59:21
1 Peter 1:25

I began to see that The Covenant of His Law will last FOREVER and for all Generations:

Psalm 33:11
Psalm 100:5
Psalm 105:8

And so, it was then that I realized that Truths such as His Sabbaths and Feasts were intended to remain FOR EVER:

Exodus 31:13, 16 -- Sabbath
Isaiah 66:22-23 -- Sabbath
Exodus 12:14-17 -- Passover
Leviticus 23:27-31 -- Atonement
Leviticus 23:34-41 -- Tabernacles


I could see that even in the future Kingdom, God will make sure the Feast of Tabernacles will be kept EVEN BY THE GENTILES:

Zechariah 14:16-19
Isaiah 56:2-5

And with a broadened perspective I could finally see that God's Holy Law Itself will one day flourish upon this earth in ALL Nations:

Micah 4:2
Isaiah 51:4
Isaiah 42:4
John 16:8-11



And finally, I could see that the Apostles themselves continued to keep the Sabbath and Feasts as Christian ordinances even decades after Messiah's Ascension. We can count some 85 times in The Book of Acts that the Apostles kept the weekly Sabbath the same as the Jews:

Acts 17:1-4 -- 22 years after the Ascension, the Sabbath is mentioned 3 distinct times.

Acts 13:13-15
Acts 13:42-43
Acts 16:11-13

Acts 18:1-11 -- Paul was at Corinth for 1 year and 6 months, and we are told that he went to the synagogue EVERY Sabbath. That alone is 78 Sabbaths. Not once are we told we held a meeting on the first day of the week this whole time, even after making converts from among the Gentile proselytes.

Acts 20:6 -- This event happened at what is called an "oneg", a fellowship meal that happens in the evening after the "habdalah" (closing) of the Sabbath, which can go late into the night, thus crossing over the sunset and into the "first day of the week". For Jews, the "first day of the week" begins on Saturday night, just after sunset (not to be confusing here).


In addition to these 85 accounts of Sabbath-keeping in The Book of Acts, there are also several mentions of the Apostles keeping the three Daily Ritual Prayers:
Acts: 3:1
Acts 10:9
Acts 12:12

Also, we have a record of Apostolic observance of the Feasts:
Acts 2:1-38 -- Pentecost (Shabu'ot)
Acts 20:6 -- Passover (Pesah)
Acts 20:16 -- Pentecost (Shabu'ot)
Acts 18:20-21 -- Tabernacles (Suqqot)
Acts 12:3-4 -- Unleavened Bread (Matzot)
Acts 27:9 -- Atonement (Yom Qippur)
1 Corinthians 16:7-8 -- Pentecost (Shabu'ot)


Apparently, the keeping of the "Jewish" Sabbaths, Prayers and Feasts did not bother the theological beliefs of the Apostles. They do not seem to think that keeping these "Jewish" ordinances was contradictory to their "Christian" convictions. They were simply continuing to follow the religion that The Master had modeled for them.

I am sure the Apostles were aware of the prophecy that one day the Feast of Tabernacles will be observed universally by ALL Nations on earth:
Zechariah 14:16-19
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  #275  
Old 09-05-2017, 12:30 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

There are MANY reliable quotes from historians and theologians who readily admit that the Sabbath was indeed kept by the earliest Christian generations. But I will be glad to quote just a couple here for now:

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews; therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council."
-- The Whole Works of Jeremy Taylor, vol. IX, p 416 (R. Heber's Edition, vol. XII, p. 416)


"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day . . . It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival . . . Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Master of the Sabbath. Epiphanius says the same."
-- Antiquities of the Christian Church, vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
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  #276  
Old 09-05-2017, 12:46 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

As I personally learned to see that the Sabbaths and Feasts were purposed to be forever and that this was how the original Apostles understood it, and that these Sabbaths, Prayers, and Feasts will be permanent fixtures of the Divine Religion even in the Age-To-Come, I felt that keeping them as well was THE MOST Apostolic thing one could do. As a contemporary Apostolic believer, I began to see FULL imitation of the original Apostolic Faith as participation in the only truly Apostolic Way. To me, it was a matter of honesty.

Once I finally made the steps in faith to honor God in obedience regarding this matter, it was for me like being Baptized in Spirit all over again. I felt His joy and His peace. I felt myself filled with His Blessing. My experience of Sabbath lined up with what I seemed to be finding in Scripture. Yes indeed, the whole thing revolutionized my walk as well as my theology, and some of that was hard for me, but the overall blessing of this thing . . . this new walk of faith and obedience, as I now could see it, was better for my spirit than what I thought I had before.

What is more, as I connected with others who likewise saw the same things I had seen, the sweeter still it became. While we live daily with the pejorative stigma that even our beloved Apostolic Tradition attaches to us, we feel that the importance of His Sabbath is far more weighty a matter to give up on what we have discovered. So we talk in tongues. We lay hands on the sick. We baptize by immersion in HIS name. We prophecy one to another. We anoint with oil. We tithe, and we fast. AND we keep the Bible Sabbath in spirit AND in deed . . . just like the original Apostles.

And so it is that for us, we see the Sabbath Truth as an ongoing next step in the Restoration of Apostolic Faith. Having begun, as brother David K. Bernard shows, with the Reformation, then with the Baptist/Methodist Revival, then with the Holiness Revival, then with the Azusa Street/Apostolic Faith Revival, and then with the New Issue. For us, the Sabbath is a next step to the Restoration of All Things.
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  #277  
Old 09-05-2017, 01:13 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

God's Revealed Religion is a Way of finding Redemption through faith, but that true faith is a faith that produces an obedience to His Way (Jer. 31:31-34; Ez. 37:26-28).

We as Apostolic Christians, whether we realize it or not, are already keeping most of the Commandments of The Law that apply to any one of the average of us. Whether it be through obedience to Civil Law, or through adherence to custom, church traditions, or inward conscience, we are already keeping most of The Law. As Believers, we have The Spirit, which inwardly compels us as regards such things as modesty, honesty, integrity, and industriousness. But what we Set-Apart Apostolic believers say is that there exists a stronghold of church tradition which prevents a lot of us otherwise obedient Believers from walking in the FULLNESS of His Way. That FULLNESS includes the few other elements of His Divine Law that we have been told are not for us and have been done away with.
Simple obedience to His Way in The Law is kept by the minimal requirements of seven specific "Deeds of Righteousness" (GEMILUT HA TZIDKOT), which include the Sabbaths. Following these seven specific Deeds of Righteousness is what is known as The Way of Holiness, and in The Bible it is called The Fear of The Lord:

1. Belief in and confession of The One True God (which I think is connected to our confession of His ONENESS as opposed to the Trinity). Deuteronomy 6:4.

2. Daily Prayer (Psalm 55:17; Daniel 6:10; Psalm 141:2; Acts 3:1; 10:3; 10:9; 12:12).

3. Tithing (Genesis 14:19-20; Numbers 18:26; Leviticus 27:30-34; Proverbs 3:9-10; Malachi 3:8-12; Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42).

4. Fasting (Joel 1:14; 2:12, 15; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Matthew 17:21).

5. Abstaining from meats God deems unfit to eat - such as pork (Leviticus 11:7-8; Deuteronomy 14:8; Isaiah 66:17; Acts 10:14).

6. THE SABBATHS (weekly and annual) (Exodus 31:16-17; 20:8-11; Isaiah 58:13-14; Ezekiel 20:12; Isaiah 56:2, 6; Isaiah 66:23; Mark 2:27; Hebrews 4:1-11).

7. Honoring God's Lordship through full obedience to all individually applicable and relevant Commandments (Deuteronomy 6:25; Leviticus 18:4-5; 19:37; 20:8; Matthew 5:19; 12:50; John 14:15, 21, 23; James 1:22; 1 John 2:3; 5:3; 2 John 1:6; Revelation 22:14).
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  #278  
Old 09-05-2017, 01:35 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

So any way, for me it was a matter of defending the credibility of God theologically. The Feasts, Sabbaths, and Commanded Ordinances are all part of God's Revealed Religion, the Law Code of His Divine Truth, and aspects of His Covenant which we are told by His very Own words were intended to remain and last forever. That being said, some today teach that God's Covenant and all the Ordinances and Commandments that come along with It have been cancelled out and abrogated by God Himself through The "New" Covenant. These people teach that God has changed His Mind and replaced His original Teachings and Truths with a whole new Covenant. The problem that I fear with this doctrine is that it makes God out to be self-contradictory. How can any one put their hopes and trust in a Deity Who ultimately has proven Himself to be self-contradictory?

The Bible teaches the eternality of God's Covenants and of His Commandments, and He will require the Nations to repent of any teaching which contradicts His Truth, embrace His Covenant, and keep ALL His Commandments in the Latter Days.

I just don't believe that The Word of The Lord preached as "TRUTH" in The Old Testament contradicts The Word as preached by the Messiah in The New Testament (1 Peter 1:25).

According to The Bible, as I read It, The "Word of The Lord" that was preached as "The Truth that shall endure forever" in The Old Testament is THE SAME WORD and is IDENTICAL to The Word that is preached in The New Testament Gospel. What this means to me is that the Old and the New DO NOT contradict each other.

The Message of The Gospel in The New Testament continues to uphold The Old Testament and continues to be in agreement with the original Message of The Old Testament, including The Torah, which is an inseparable component of the original Covenant Revelation of The Creator.

The New Testament never revealed any new doctrine that was not already revealed or anticipated in The Old Testament. And no doctrine of The Old Testament is cancelled or superceded by The New Testament. Both speak as ONE and are in complete agreement and unity regarding spiritual Truth. For me, this understanding solves the problems created by Dispensationalism regarding the integrity, dependability, and credibility of God.
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  #279  
Old 09-05-2017, 01:35 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raffi View Post
Simple obedience to His Way in The Law is kept by the minimal requirements of seven specific "Deeds of Righteousness"
Where are these "seven specific deeds of righteousness" listed as such in the Bible? Or is this a modern construct or arrangement?

Quote:
Following these seven specific Deeds of Righteousness is what is known as The Way of Holiness, and in The Bible it is called The Fear of The Lord:
Where does the Scripture identify "the way of holiness, aka the fear of the Lord" as "following these seven specific deeds"?

Tithing as a required act requires the Temple and the Levitical priesthood, does it not? How then do you pay your tithes? (Not denying that giving tenths of wages, income, dividends, etc is a useful and traditional/Biblical way of giving, but asking specifically as regards to a required act of tithing.)
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Last edited by Esaias; 09-05-2017 at 01:44 AM.
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  #280  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:01 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

The True Way teaches that The Creator, the Lord of the Universe, is far wiser than we are. Furthermore, as a loving Father, He loves all of us passionately. He did not create us to grope around in a Universe of chaos and mindless chance by ourselves, without help and without hope. It was never His Will that we have to be left alone, independent of His Presence and Guidance (Jer. 10:23).

We are His Children. Just as any young child needs guidance of parents, so every one of us also needs the Guidance of The Heavenly Creator (Is. 48:17-18). But how does The Creator communicate to us His Guidance? He does so through His Word (Ps. 119:105; 18:28; 19:8; 43:3; Prov. 6:23; 2 Peter 1:19).

The Teachings and Principles of His Scripture provide the Guidance we need to know Him and to live a happy and successful life in this World. These Principles are derived from the Commandments of His Torah Law, which leads us and teaches us the best way to live in the World now. Since it is God Who created us, Who better to know what we need for happiness and success in life?

Psalm 19:7
Psalm 19:11

Bible Principles are fundamental truths about life, contained within The Commands (Mitzwot) of His Law.

Deut. 22:8
Prov. 2:10-12

All of the Commandments of God can be summarized within two overarching principles, called The Commandments of Love. The first of these Principles reveals to us the purpose of human life -- to know The Creator, to love Him, and to serve Him faithfully.
Deut. 6:5
Prov. 3:6
Mat. 22:36-38

The Second Great Principle teaches us to exercise universal love for all beings. This principle guides us into a place where we are able to maintain peaceful relationships with others while we occupy space in this World.
Lev. 19:18
Mat. 7:12; 22:39-40
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