New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance

[Sam]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

...if an individual is in the process of completing the New Birth as you suggest, but God through divine providence, takes the person out of this life before they are able to be baptized, God's hand in that must be recognized, and their intents acknowledged. God is the righteous judge, and he knows the internal state of the indivual. If God stopped it, or allowed it to be stopped, as Scripture says "I'll have mercy upon who I'll have mercy".... God can very well have mercy on that person, in the same way he can righteously judge them. At that point it's in the hands of God!

In the Roman Catholic Church (which also teaches "born of water" means "water baptism" and also teaches that baptism washes away sin), what you have spoken of is called "baptism of desire" or "baptism by desire" (not sure of the exact words). The idea is that the person would have been baptized if possible but since he couldn't, God gives him credit for being baptized.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Sam

In the Roman Catholic Church (which also teaches "born of water" means "water baptism" and also teaches that baptism washes away sin), what you have spoken of is called "baptism of desire" or "baptism by desire" (not sure of the exact words). The idea is that the person would have been baptized if possible but since he couldn't, God gives him credit for being baptized.

Exactly, just like God gave credit to Abraham for offering Isaac, even though God, through the angel, stopped the offering!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Exactly, just like God gave credit to Abraham for offering Isaac, even though God, through the angel, stopped the offering!

God knows our motives and intentions even better than we do (1 Sam 16:7)

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

If you guys are going to interpret Acts 2:38 so literally in order to believe that Baptism is for remission of sin then why not believe that communion is also needed in order to obtain remission of sins?

Why are you comparing two totally different experiences? Baptism is for (Gk. eis, into) remission of sins.... communion is done in memorial of Christs sacrifice. Does non sequitor apply here? lol....

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Now we have folks saying that we have to repent, be baptized, and then receive the Holy Ghost in order to OBTAIN remission. Looks to me like more and more is being added to obtain remission.

No man can enter in unless he is born again, of the water and Spirit.... if a persaon has "remission", but has not been born again, what good is their "remission"? I simply contend that the full conversion of water and Spirit is where remission is experienced. Repentance, and Baptism most directly affect remission of sins in a believers life, but full conversion is necessary to have salvation/remission of sins... this is established in several references.

Consider:

John 3:5
Except a man be born of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (pretty self explainatory, water and spirit)

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus (water baptism), and by the Spirit of our God (Spirit baptism).

Heb 10:22
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience (Spirit), and our bodies washed with pure water (water).

Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration (water), and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Spirit);

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

It was Jesus Christ who paid for our remission of sins on the Cross and my remission was obtained at that time.

The price was paid on calvary, but you don't participate in the benefits of what was obtained at calvary until you have been converted and are "in Christ"... "for as many of you as have been baptized unto Christ, have put on Christ"... Gal 3:27

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Sam

God knows our motives and intentions even better than we do.

God is the only one who knows our motives and intentions... Our hearts are deceitful and wicked... who can know them but God alone?

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

If you guys are going to interpret Acts 2:38 so literally in order to believe that Baptism is for remission of sin then why not believe that communion is also needed in order to obtain remission of sins?

Now we have folks saying that we have to repent, be baptized, and then receive the Holy Ghost in order to OBTAIN remission. Looks to me like more and more is being added to obtain remission.

It was Jesus Christ who paid for our remission of sins on the Cross and my remission was obtained at that time.

Originally Posted by Sam

God knows our motives and intentions even better than we do (1 Sam 16:7)

BTW Gentlemen, I am a "three-stepper"... I think that's pretty self explainatory!!!

[KWSS1976]

Ok someone break down for me what a one stepper,two stepper,three stepper or 4steppers believe

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Ok someone break down for me what a one stepper,two stepper,three stepper or 4steppers believe

One stepper - salvation occurs at repentence (i.e. one step)


Three stepper - salvation is a function of full conversion through repentence, water baptism, and Spirit baptism (i.e. three steps)


two stepper - those who enjoy country dancing (TIC)

[KWSS1976]

So how would you classify the phillipian jailer in Acts?

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

So how would you classify the phillipian jailer in Acts?

An argument from abstentia does not substantiate a doctrinal position. We cannot determine doctrine from what is not said in scripture, only from what is clearly stated. Scripture is replete, the pattern of New Birth into the kingdom is 1.) repentance, 2.) water baptism, and 3.) Spirit baptism. I would suggest that the Phillipian jailer's full experience emulates what is declared throughout scripture, although it was not specifically recorded as such in Acts 16. But consider the internal evidence of the fullness of the Phillipain Jailer's experience here:

Acts 16:30-34
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (REPENTANCE)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord (THE APOSTLES DOCTRINE), and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized (WATER BAPTISM), he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. (SPIRIT BAPTISM IS SOMEWHERE IN THIS MAN'S EXPERIENCE)

Scripture does not specifically identify Spirit baptism as it is referenced in other passages... but there is clearly repentance, water baptism, and a genuine God experience, thus "rejoicing and believing with all his house". The abscence of identification of Spirit baptism does not nullify the replete references in scripture as to the necessity of this experience. We can only assert that if this man and his house ended up saved, he too experienced Spirit baptism, either immdiately, or at some point in his life.

We know that Paul preached Spirit baptism, because that is exactly what he wanted to know from the Ephesian disciples in Acts 19 "have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed"... that was part of Paul's message... and we assert that is the same message he preached to the jailer's house. Paul's message was consistent "but though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel, than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" Gal 1:8