John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Look Don, Amanah just proved you wrong again.

How about if we have a discussion on how screws are better than nails when building a deck?

Wouldn't bolts be better than either?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wouldn't bolts be better than either?

Most certainly. But practicality sake and expense screws get the job done.
But, lets ask Don and see what he thinks? If Cornelius had a vision to use nails and Peter was sent to Cornelius' house with screws. Which vision was truly from God?

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

As others have pointed out, we are at a stalemate with this discussion, so it should probably come to an end. Maybe there is something else you would like to discuss.


~~~~~~~~~~The End~~~~~~~~~

Thx for your inputs. Sorry you have to go, Amanah, but look at that ladies and gentlemen. Look at the timing of departure. Its true that I keep repeating myself, not adding anything new. .

But it's suspiciously convenient to leave the kitchen when things are getting hot. Did you notice that Amanah avoids answering my question to her, post 263? Now, where's that emoji that shows a dog, tail between its legs, running away?


About that child, the one one who ate the cheese you had cut off the block, intending it for yourself. When your back is turned your child eats it, upsetting you. "Why'd you eat my cheese?", you demand, and they answer "you never said not to eat it. I thought I could take it." And you know they are right. You never spoke the cheese law and being just you don't judge by a cheese law that doesn't exist. But what if you had made a cheese law and the kid heard it but another of your kids comes from outside the house, grabs the cheese and eats it, but never heard your cheese law. Do you come down hard on that kid? Of course not. Even though you had made a cheese law you don't apply the cheese law on those who haven't heard. That's only common sense. But listening to many on this thread who cast away common sense, instead rigidly applying gospel law without it, these condemn to hell all those who haven't heard the gospel because they say that the gospel is the only way provided for salvation. Well, YEAH, it's the only provided for those who hear and all hearing but refusing will see their sin dragging them into hell. But not everyone hears. Paul shows us some who have never heard, but living right by the conscience, admitted to heaven. There are those in this thread who are eager to d.mn these living right by the only God-given method available to them, the conscience, and thus show us an unjust God, throwing out common sense by it. Shame on anyone doing so. That doesn't describe the just God, the Lord Jesus, the Bible shows. Stop showing the Lord in this light.

There will be some that will say the cheese analogy doesn't describe God, because he is never seen as turning his back or jumping on kids for a bit of cheese as a self-centered parent would. But that's what they do, ignoring the gist of an argument, nit-picking on details to show the author of the cheese story in a shady way, because they have an agenda which requires them to do so. Sadly we read what they say by these methods, wasting our time on time reading irrelevant words, if we want to keep up on our reading.

It's true that I haven't responded to all the arguments others have put forward, especially those which focus on the gospel (which I 100% believe in and they rightly describe) of those who have heard, but ignoring them when the thrust of my arguments are with those who have never heard. It is as frustrating to seemingly have the main part of your argument ignored as these presenters are in my ignoring their arguments. But time restraints compound the issue with not responding, making them not possible. Sorry, my apologies to all I've frustrated for this reason. See what I did there? I gave Amanah an easy out for not replying to the question. She can now say she's too busy.


[/COLOR]

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Just a final note:

See? Talk about attempting to discredit someone's character. I was forced to do that which I didn't really want to do. Had I not been forced to show such measures you would not have seen such a method used. This is your standard procedure when someone doesn't agree with your unbiblical ideas. Readers have seen the Biblical principles I've used and anyone agreeing with God will agree with their use.

Still waiting for a response to the question 'Does God d.mn those who are baptized but haven't received the Spirit?' Don't bother to say you have responded because I've checked and you haven't, but plz show me wrong with the post number. By your rigid interpretation of salvation doctrine you d.mn to hell these who aren't truly fully born again, though God has a forgiving atittude toward them and has remitted their sin. Your interpretation shows God d.mning righteous people. Come on over to this side, where the Bible doesn't condemn right-living people. Its nice and cool in the shade of God's Word.

Colossians 2:8 KJV
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. ]To which I say AMEN. My hope is that you will include in your theology that which Ro shows of God's use of the conscience, thereby softening your stance to include all the Word, showing God just.[/B]

.

[Amanah]

I'm just leaving before it gets bloody

Don't want to break a fingernail

[Esaias]

For Don:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, it seems to me the real intent of the thread is to address the attitude that some (many?) have towards other professing Christians who have not yet come more fully into the "truth". The question is raised about the repentant but unbaptised person, "should they be told they are still going to split hell wide open unless they get baptised in Jesus' name?"

I honestly cannot see the situation actually happening, as described. There are two types of repentant persons: the person who hears apostolic preaching, is convicted, and decides to side with Jesus and follow the Lord. Such persons will almost immediately be baptised, almost always that very day. Even if - as is the practice of some churches, sadly - they are told "to schedule a time next week to be baptised" they are not treated by the other believers as outsiders. At least not that I have ever seen or heard of.

On the other hand, the other type of repentant person, is the one who hears preaching by a non apostolic preacher, in a non apostolic context. Such a person will likely be told "ask Jesus into your heart and you will be born again". Such persons may be told to get baptised for the remission of sins (in a Cambellite, Lutheran, possibly Methodist, Christadelphian, Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic context) but almost certainly using the trinitarian formula of Rome and not the Bible formula of the name of Jesus Christ. So what of these?

Are these people repentant? Is the Gnostic repentant? The Mormon, the Jehovah's Witness? What about the Muslim convert, for that matter? They have amended their lives, they have "stopped the sinning" they were so used to, they have "turned over a new leaf". Does heaven rejoice over such persons and their change of life? Sure. God and heaven always rejoice whenever and wherever righteousness and goodness prevail over evil and wickedness. Are such persons Biblically "repentant"? That is, have they REPENTED in the Gospel sense?

I think in most cases, NO. Repentance implies more than just that the thief stop stealing or the adulterer stop adulterating or that the liar stop lying. It implies a turning FROM SIN (as such) and a turning in faith towards God through Jesus Christ. It implies hearing the Gospel and saying "yes".

Have such persons heard the Gospel? Not have they heard something about someone called "Jesus" but have they heard the Message ordained by God and delivered to the apostles and sent forth into the world? I don't doubt that many people have heard about Jesus, been drawn to him, and for whatever reason take a long time to come to the waters of genuine apostolic baptism, travelling through many winding and twisting roads of erroneous theology to wind up in the end at the Truth. His sheep hear His voice, through all the din and bluster of the world's religious nonsense. Eventually they come to Him.

ANYONE who professes belief in Jesus should be welcomed, and encouraged to continue with God into all the truth. Anyone who balks at the truth, at whatever step along the way, either doesn't understand what is being presented or is proving they are "not all of us". Not everyone claiming to belong to Jesus does in fact belong to Him. Time tells all, and we are sanctified by God's Truth, that is what sets us apart. So those who REJECT truth simply identify themselves with the world and its errors.

But anyone who shows up to an apostolic meeting, having previously been to the local Baptist evangelist's rally, and got convicted and decided to give their life to Jesus, will be GLAD to hear about Acts 2:38, they will be GLAD to hear about the Holy Ghost, they will be GLAD to be exposed to the Truth in all its facets, because if they DID repent, then they have a love for the truth and will follow the Spirit's leading into all truth.

Otherwise, they never had it to begin with.

So no, we don't need to tell someone "hey you repented but you haven't been baptised yet, see? So you're on your way to a devil's hell for real for real no cap." no, we should simply tell them "Ah, great, you have decided to follow Jesus! Well here is what He said, and what His apostles said, about how we are to follow him, so come along with us together to the City of the King!" If they refuse? Then they judge themselves unworthy of eternal life.

[Esaias]

And look, Don read my post and responded, then moved on:

[QUOTE=donfriesen1;1615256]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, it seems to me the real intent of the thread is to address the attitude that some (many?) have towards other professing Christians who have not yet come more fully into the "truth". The question is raised about the repentant but unbaptised person, "should they be told they are still going to split hell wide open unless they get baptised in Jesus' name?"

Yes, you've got it right. Its about attitude. But there may be more to this. Plz allow me to think out loud as I write. I say that because the thoughts are underdeveloped; I haven't put enough time into it to come to any firm conclusions.

First, let it be said that I believe in Jn 3.5 and Ac2.38 as necessary for those wanting 100%. Is there a place in God's world where he can accept those who give 95%? Or said another way, is it 100% with God or you go to hell? Very few of us will admit to giving 100% and do we condemn ourselves by admitting it. Admittedly, this argument confuses 2 different topics; obedience to the salvation message and the obedience to total committment. They are separate things.

Second, NT salvation is about Covenant. Is there a place in God's world where relationships exist without covenant? The time from Adam to Sinai was a time without law and isn't some law a necessary component of any covenant? Of that 2500 year period we know of no general law nor general covenant requirement. (Noah had covenant, but perhaps only a personal not on a group level as shown with Israel and the Church. Abraham also had covenant.) Of the many people in this time who are righteous, Enoch being one, can it be said to be without covenant? God is in some sort of relationship with everyone he has created but many without covenant. If it can be said of these, then what is to prevent any from saying that a person today can not be viewed righteous outside of covenant. Saying it another way: should we be eager to condemn anyone who hasn't entered covenant while still making efforts to share the full gospel with these? Having a less condemning attitude absolves no Apostolic of the responsibility of sharing the whole Word of God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And look, Don read my post and responded, then moved on:

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...6&postcount=16

Don, has issues.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I'm just leaving before it gets bloody

Don't want to break a fingernail

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

I was forced to do that which I didn't really want to do. Had I not been forced to show such measures you would not have seen such a method used.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Readers have seen the Biblical principles I've used and anyone agreeing with God will agree with their use.

Don, no one is agreeing with you. Also when did GOD tell you that He agrees with you? Because He doesn't.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Still waiting for a response to the question 'Does God ........ those who are baptized but haven't received the Spirit?' Don't bother to say you have responded because I've checked and you haven't, but plz show me wrong with the post number.

Well, well, well, sorry Donnie my boy. But once again you are WRONG!
You actually have the Midas touch in reverse. We will wait for your apology.

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...6&postcount=16

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

By your rigid interpretation of salvation doctrine you ........ to hell these who aren't truly fully born again,

We didn't write the Bible. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. You got a prayer room? I suggest you use it, and maybe you'll figure out that we aren't your problem. You just need a good dose of the Holy Ghost. Maybe after a few days of some snot bubbles and tears, you'll have a come to Jesus meeting.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

though God has a forgiving atittude toward them and has remitted their sin. Your interpretation shows God damning righteous people. Come on over to this side, where the Bible doesn't condemn right-living people. Its nice and cool in the shade of God's Word.

God does have a forgiving attitude, and His mercy endureth forever. Like I said, you have a very carnal and narrow view of Jesus Christ. You believe that men can be saved separate from the Gospel. Saved by their own righteousness (Romans 10:3). Again, I implore you to find a place to seek the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

which I say AMEN. My hope is that you will include in your theology that which Ro shows of God's use of the conscience, thereby softening your stance to include all the Word, showing God just.

Don, there is no angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. Jiminy Cricket will not lead long nosed puppets to heaven. They'll just end up in the belly of a whale. You believe the God of the Bible to be flawed, unfair, ridged, and, unmerciful. But see yourself as right living and God wrong intentioned.

You are just a run of the mill religious Christian, trying to make the narrow way, the broad way.

The sheep hear Jesus' voice and you they won't follow.

Hey, did I mention that the Stanley Cup is in Fort Lauderdale?