Demons and the believer

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I am in the process of studying the subject myself. Lucifer is a good example. I was taught that Is 14 was about a rebellion in heaven, but upon closer examination (in context) it appears to be talking about an earthly ruler.

I see discrepancies in what I was originally taught.

It undoubtedly is about a eatthy riuler but there is a parallel and comparison going on there with Satan. This guy is walking in the path of the way Satan went. So it is talking about the earthly king.

The same goes for Ezekial 28 thats about the king of Tyre but the same thing is going on there. I don't know what Bible you use but those thought for thought translations can make it murky.

But not a lot of information is given to this subject for the fact God chose there not to be. But it doesn't mean, it's not important it's just scattered all over.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, you have divine revelation that is not actually stated in the Bible? Sorry, but I don't go by anyone's divine revelation, I have a more sure word (2 Peter 1:19).

You are eisegeting, reading into the text things that are not there. I understand that what is being presented to you is contrary to the beliefs you have, and therefore you have a hard time understanding something other than what you currently hold. To each his own. I have no sacred cows and no traditions to defend except what I see written in the Word.

The origin and nature and mechanism of sin is spelled out quite explicitly in the Bible, and that's what I believe. The terms devil and satan are used for various things and various people, so I believe that. The Bible teaches by both precept and example that we are not running around swatting invisible demon-flies, but are engaged in a spiritual war between the Kingdom (dominion, RULE) of Christ and the kingdoms of men and their vain philosophies. Heathen gods are demons, and they are also NOTHING. That informs my understanding of these things.

People can get all sorts of things "in the prayer room" but if it does not agree with the Scripture then it's all just last night's pizza sauce.

Brother I've shown over and over again from the word of God proof. While what you are saying is true I agree, but it's also got another aspect to it you are leaving out and that's what I'm saying. There is scripture to prove both. There is a spiritual and physical kingdom for good and for evil. The Bible is clear.

I do appreciate the aspect you have magnified because it showed me a greater depth to what I already know, but what your saying doesn't come independent of the other aspect. It takes both. Thank you for your time on this subject. It really did help.

Esaias let me ask you do you believe in a eternal hell?

[Aquila]

Rather he be called "that old serpent", Baal, Lucifer, Tammuz, Jupiter, the devil, Satan, or the "spirit of antichrist", he's the very same spiritual being, and god of this age (or world system). He has possessed and influenced world leaders going all the way back to before Nimrod, the King of Babylon, and the King of Tyrus. In addition, he has an army of fallen angels who assist him in his work.

[berkeley]

Esaias let me ask you do you believe in a eternal hell?

I won’t tell you what he believes. I believe in the annihilation of the wicked.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by berkeley

I won’t tell you what he believes. I believe in the annihilation of the wicked.

So, you believe consciousness ceases upon death, or do you believe only upon being cast into the lake of fire?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I am in the process of studying the subject myself. Lucifer is a good example. I was taught that Is 14 was about a rebellion in heaven, but upon closer examination (in context) it appears to be talking about an earthly ruler.

I see discrepancies in what I was originally taught.

Who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Who was Jesus talking to?

Who was God talking to in Job 1?


What is really interesting is if you read all the scriptures in the NT taken from the OT and see how the NT writers interpret those OT scriptures. You will find some interesting renderings of the OT by NT writers in which the NT writers find Jesus everywhere in the OT where many in the OT would have understood the OT scripture differently at the time. Try Isa 7:14 and Matt 1:23. I choose to believe the NT writer's interpretation of the OT but at the same time believe there may have been a near and far interpretation of the OT scripture.

[Aquila]

I have a friend who is a devout atheist. He was elaborating on what he believes after we began discussing death... and he said something like this (the words aren't exact, but I'm recalling his point),

"The universe is 14 billion years old. I'm only 39. For the vast majority of history I wasn't alive. No clouds and harps, no fire and pitchforks, no angels, no demons. No fear, no questions, no pain. Just blissful oblivion. After being born, I encountered fear, anxiety, questions, distrust, and unhappiness. Why should I fear death? I wasn't alive for the majority of the history of the universe, and its blissful oblivion sure beats living and trying to survive every day, listening to people argue over their invisible friends in the sky. I'm more afraid of how I'm going to pay my electric bill."

I think atheism and Annihilationism bares this similarity regarding their view of death.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Who was tempting Jesus in the desert? Who was Jesus talking to?

Many of the passages we have discussed in this thread point to an earthly ruler/principality, although as Bro Chris has pointed out that does not rule out a spiritual interpretation also.

There are two passages where it is plain to see a malevolent spirit being involved:

* the temptation in the garden.
* the temptation of Christ in the Desert

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Many of the passages we have discussed in this thread point to an earthly ruler/principality, although as Bro Chris has pointed out that does not rule out a spiritual interpretation also.

There are two passages where it is plain to see a malevolent spirit being involved:

* the temptation in the garden.
* the temptation of Christ in the Desert

Bingo.

Where many people seem to fail to understand one another is when one is using "both/and" logic. This is because most in the church today have a Western "either/or" perspective.

"Both/and" is a type of logic used in decision making that allows for a greater variety and scope of outcomes than a rigid either/or decision making process. This approach is useful when comparing two or more possibilities or outcomes in a real world setting. It tends to see things in multifaceted ways wherein two or more seemingly contradictory truths, perspectives, or courses of action can be both be equally true or valid at the same time. Whereas "either/or" logic rigidly demands that only one perspective, course of action, or absolute is possible.

Typically, those who embrace "either/or" logic tend to present false dichotomies. It's like the Unitarian asking, "Is Jesus the Son of God or is Jesus the Father?" In his Western mind, he assumes that Jesus can't be both. And, he frames the question in a manner wherein the assumed answer will be one or the other. Such individuals get very frustrated when one employs "both/and" logic. Because now Jesus is not only the Son of God, but also God... and He is the Prince of Peace, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and the End, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and the Lamb of God. With this, the Western mind will seek category fallacies to support its premise. "Well, if Jesus was God, who did He pray to???" That's a clear category fallacy. Because one is comparing the ontological category of humanity to the category of divinity equally and without distinction.

Here's another example of rigid Western logic in theology, as it presents a false dichotomy through categorical fallacy...

"Are the righteous dead sleeping in their graves awaiting resurrection or are they alive in a Heavenly afterlife?"

Now, verses will typically be shown that speak of the dead being at sleep, having no memory, etc. And it will be proposed that these verses "cancel out" any verses that suggest an after life, because after all, both can't be true, can they? The other position, but still from a Western perspective, will do the same with verses canceling out the verses that suggest sleeping in the grave. The two sides will go on and on forever, in what is almost like a race to see who has more Scriptures to back their point. (As though the Bible contradicts itself. lol)

Well, the Eastern mind sees these seemingly contradictory truths in categorical distinctions. As it relates to the body of a righteous man, it is asleep in the grave, has no knowledge, no memory, and is awaiting resurrection. However, the righteous can also be in a Heavenly afterlife as it might pertain to the soul. The Eastern mind can then answer, yes the dead sleep... and... yes, the dead are present with the Lord. Because the individual is both sleeping in the grave and is alive in Heaven at the same time. Both seemingly contradictory thoughts are now made to agree through a proper categorical distinction predicated upon ontology.

Whenever anyone offers a question that presents a dichotomy (either/or), be suspicious. It is typically a false dichotomy predicated upon a failure to draw categorical distinctions. One can quickly tell if they are dealing with a person whose mind is primarily shaped by modern Western philosophy as opposed to understanding the Eastern mind of Scripture when they employ such rigid rubbish in their debating, reason, or logic.

The only real problem with "both/and" logic is that those locked in a Western mind will honestly perceive you as being self-contradictory because they can't conceive that two or more seemingly contradictory truths can be true at the same time. So, you'll typically face an uphill battle in trying to get them to realize framework of your perspective.

[Amanah]

The flip side is we tend to see only the spiritual application of many of the scriptures we have discussed, when the context is contending with earthly principalities/adversaries, Assyrian, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, ect.

The Old Testament prophets lived in conflict with the culture around them, fighting injustice, idolatry, and violations of the law. Nathan confronting David, Elijah confronting Ahab for example.

The NT Apostles turned their world upside down, covering the then known world on foot, donkey, boat, ect, preaching the gospel from Asia to Greece to Rome.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.