Sit Down and Behave Yourself!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by shag

At what point concerning outward displays of what is called either worship or praise, does the things people do in the name of Jesus and/or giving credit to the Holyghost for such "displays"(or types/methods), cross over from giving glory to the HG, into giving shame and mockery to the Holyghost? Determining if it is even the Holyghost? And exactly how is that determined asside from a simple "try the spirits" answer?

(Speaking asside from the church video in particular, and more of a broad sense of pentecostal and/or charismatic movement.)


http://www.google.com/m/url?ei=pyQaT...X6sjiMRkb_pbNA

First of all, why does everything have to be "The Holy Ghost" as if someone is clapping just because the Holy Ghost made them?

The simple truth is people can worship before and without a "move of the Holy Ghost" or being prompted by the Holy Ghost

The simple truth is, one does not need a "move of the Holy Ghost" in order to rejoice over what God has done for them.

I don't consider everything that goes on to be either worship or rejoicing. I also think when we have visitors we should be a little more careful of how we rejoice.

But the fact remains the bible does not instruct us how to be happy or rejoice

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

OK, let me put it to you this way, and believe me, I am passionate about worship and praise, when does your praise become more concerned about who you offend instead of who you praise? When does the focus change from God to those around you?

Maybe being concerned for those around you, especially unfamiliar visitors IS focusing on God...or doing God's will. One does not have to offend a visitor in order to worship God. One can actually worship God and not run around or jump up and down, which as I said before is not really worship but rejoicing

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Gotta say I am a bit surprised at Prax's responses to Jason (I don't recall you as an advocate for total abandon shockamoo Prax), but I do agree there is no precedent for much of what is known as "doing church" in the NT.

Whether music, shockamoo, isle runnings, group tongue speaking as a mode of worship, shadow boxing, or mosh pit altars, it's just not NT.

Nevertheless, it's not an automatic that these things are inherently wrong or cant be recieved by God. (I might argue the point on tongues)

The point is, so much of this is personal preference and the "standard" is set by local churches. The line, I think, should be drawn at this stuff becoming a compulsion for all by church leaders. I think there should be more tolerance for worship styles in most churches. Or at least acknowledgement that Christians differ rather than trashing those who do things a bit different.

Here is what Jason said

I'm not against getting into a service, I am against losing control, working yourself into a frenzy, etc.

Prax, you're good with scripture, can you give me some precedent for this kind of worship in the New Testament church?

Losing control? How do we know someone "lost control"? Maybe the were very much IN control and wanted to rejoice that way?

Working yourself into a frenzy? Does anyone actually know what the word Frenzy means? Look bro, these are all non-specific and generalized (and pejorative) things he tagged "Pentecost" with.

So I can only go by what I see. I see occasionally people running the aisles. Not "out of control" and not "in a frenzy". I hear people clapping and raising their voices...What is the problem? If you want to tell me everything we do has to be found in the NT associated with a church service then please, by all means stop having church. No more music. No more buildings. NO praise singers. No choirs. No PAs. No Sunday School. No prepared messages using the NT....because they didn't have one yet.

[Arphaxad]

How can anyone tell if someone in a video is being affected by the HG or not? The HG moves on different people in different ways at the same time. One person can be leaping for joy while somone right next to them could be weeping, another right there with thier face to the carpet. Who are we to say whether someone is being touched by God or not?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Gotta say I am a bit surprised at Prax's responses to Jason (I don't recall you as an advocate for total abandon shockamoo Prax), but I do agree there is no precedent for much of what is known as "doing church" in the NT.

Whether music, shockamoo, isle runnings, group tongue speaking as a mode of worship, shadow boxing, or mosh pit altars, it's just not NT.

Nevertheless, it's not an automatic that these things are inherently wrong or cant be recieved by God. (I might argue the point on tongues)

The point is, so much of this is personal preference and the "standard" is set by local churches. The line, I think, should be drawn at this stuff becoming a compulsion for all by church leaders. I think there should be more tolerance for worship styles in most churches. Or at least acknowledgement that Christians differ rather than trashing those who do things a bit different.

Me too.

Thanks Hoovie. I didn't think my position was all that radical or so easily misunderstood.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I think if we reverence God, He shows Himself to us. And He is like a fire shut up in our bones. And sometimes He shows Himself in a quiet calm.

This is a cripture that needs to go on that AFF most taken out of scriptures in pentecost thread. I've heard this used as justification fo rthe things we are talking about in this thread. Interestingly enough the "fire" in the bones of Jeremiah was the Word of God, and didn't result in the things that are sometimes claimed to be that same fire today.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

It's more sad that before I left, there were already PLENTY of Oneness Pentecostals who did not see value in these, "Times of Refreshing" and did very little to cultivate these experiences in their worship services.

More evidence of playing fast and loose with scripture.
Times of refreshing = ?

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong , whom ye see and know : yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer , he hath so fulfilled . 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken , have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed . 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I have difficulty imagining Christ or His disciples working a crowd to a frenzy by saying things like,

"You can do better than that!", "Come on now, he has been better to you than that. Don't sit down on God!", "The more you worship, the bigger your blessing!" "ok let's sing that one more time... This time let's show him that we really love Him!"

[AmericanAngel]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

I am sorry, but for what He has done for me, I will sing, shout, dance, and bow before the presence of the Almighty and worship Him with all emotion, all passion, all praise, and giving Him all the glory. I have experienced His presence so mightily that it brings me to tears, to worship, to awe and reverence. And, yes, I have gotten the looks from some, but after I share what all God has done and is doing in my life, most understand. Some do not, but then again, some do not understand what all the Lord has done in my life.

AMEN!!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I guess for me it just seems very shallow. I don't deny anyone their experience worshiping God, but I don't think it has much impact beyond that service. I've seen too many people shout and dance on Sunday and not act like a Christian at all the rest of the week. What good does the emotion and "power" do if it doesn't really change someone? I don't think shouting services make people better Christians, so really, what is the point? (And I used to enjoy a good "shockamoo" service but it still felt shallow to me, even in the midst of it.)

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

I don't see anything in this clip that makes me think the Holy Spirit is anywhere around. It is just fast music and frantic behavior at a pace that releases chemicals in the brain that result in folks having a fit.

Now, you might ask what is wrong with having a fit. Well, isn't one of the signs that the Holy Spirit is in our hearts is that we have self-control? I don't see any self control being encourage here. Shouldn't church assembly be done in order and with self sacrifice for the sinner who may be in the midst.

Even the leader of the song knows it is just a joke. If everyone would have sat down and behaved themselves they would have then been reprimanded for not getting in the spirit.

There is nothing wrong with dancing for joy but lets not make it something more than what it is. It is just dancing and having a fit.

JD, if I could say this, I think that maybe your soul is craving something that you think you need. I know, I was raised this way and it was very hard for me to not have the emotional release every service. But now, being in God's presence is so much sweeter and rich and is not about my selfish needs.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Take into consideration that during the first 300 years of Christianity Christians had no buildings, choirs, etc. They had meetings, prayer, bread, wine, and the Word. As Paul taught, you could hear a pin drop. All gathered in each home where Paul taught hung on his every word.

Since leaving all the hype behind, I've found a depth and peace that surpasses understanding. A reckoning in faith... a knowing by Spirit.

Yes, tongues have their place. Perhaps even dancing has it's place in worship. And yes even tongues have their place (if used in accordance to Scripture). But prompted hype and fast tempo that activates involuntary signals in the brain are not necessary. The vibrado, the false cry... it's all just lost on me today. Give me the Word. Our worship isn't found in a dancing frenzy two to three times a week. Our worship is with our very lives. Driving to work is an act of worship. Adorning ourselves in modesty is an act of worship. Playing with our children is an act of worship. Loving our spouses is an act of worship. Reading our Bible is an act of worship. And in all these things, we keep a heart filled with praise.

I'm just now reading the earlier pages of this thread, some good posts here Pragmatist, Delta, and Aquilla.