Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #211  
Old 12-30-2019, 10:43 PM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,479
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
On the tradition topic, I was thinking if Jesus had risen on, say Tuesday, then there should be some hint of that in church history, I woukd think there would be some evidence of an entering in or beginning of a first day of the week tradition in opposition to the original facts and understanding of the apostles.

Your post gives much food for thought.
Thanks again, Esaias. We are all striving for perfection, after all. I just want the Scriptures to make as much sense as they possibly can this side of the resurrection so I can gain as much truth from them as I possibly can while I dwell in this tabernacle. And this is what makes sense, at least so far.

Otherwise, the earliest tradition I can find is Justin's line from his Dialogues seemingly referring to Sunday being the resurrection day. But I don't have access to his works in Greek to know if he used the word sabbaton or not. And even if he did, did he inherit a misunderstanding like it seems we have?

So, I think in the same way we have no tradition from the Scriptures regarding the day and date of Christ's birth we would not have a tradition from the Scriptures regarding the day and date of His death and resurrection from the dead.

We don't even know the correct year. If we could say authoritatively it was in our year 33 AD we could trace the calendar back to when Passover would have been, and then we'd know the day of the week. But we cannot do even this, so, this is why there is no accurate church tradition, as far as I can tell, apart from the one we have currently received by translation.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/
Reply With Quote
  #212  
Old 12-31-2019, 12:00 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,758
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Thanks again, Esaias. We are all striving for perfection, after all. I just want the Scriptures to make as much sense as they possibly can this side of the resurrection so I can gain as much truth from them as I possibly can while I dwell in this tabernacle. And this is what makes sense, at least so far.

Otherwise, the earliest tradition I can find is Justin's line from his Dialogues seemingly referring to Sunday being the resurrection day. But I don't have access to his works in Greek to know if he used the word sabbaton or not. And even if he did, did he inherit a misunderstanding like it seems we have?

So, I think in the same way we have no tradition from the Scriptures regarding the day and date of Christ's birth we would not have a tradition from the Scriptures regarding the day and date of His death and resurrection from the dead.

We don't even know the correct year. If we could say authoritatively it was in our year 33 AD we could trace the calendar back to when Passover would have been, and then we'd know the day of the week. But we cannot do even this, so, this is why there is no accurate church tradition, as far as I can tell, apart from the one we have currently received by translation.
Interestingly, the NT remarks Christ rose "on the third day" from His death, with zero mention of any rising on "the first day" (except for the instances you mentioned, which are of course the disputed passages and translation issues to begin with).

I do truly appreciate your obvious interest and desire to study to show thyself approved. It's a rare quality these days, unfortunately.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #213  
Old 12-31-2019, 12:12 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,758
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
If a converted Gentile, formerly a pagan idolater, gets himself circumcised and attempts to live a saved, justified life according to the law alone, but not according to faith alone in Jesus Christ, he will most certainly end up in bondage, as much as the Jew who disinherits Christ and goes back to the law as his source of righteousness.

The issue in Galatians was not that the Galatians saw a moral responsibility to obey the laws of God as commandments. They were attempting to be justified morally in God's sight through accepting circumcision. They were willing to substitute the token of the New Covenant (baptism; see Galatians 3:27) for the token of the Old Covenant (circumcision; see Genesis 17:10-11).

That was what was going to place them in bondage. The bondage wasn't that they felt a moral responsibility to obey the commandments of God as contained in the laws from the OT. Jesus made it clear that all the law and the prophets hangs on Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:34.

So, how could a saint from Galatia love the LORD their God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love their neighbor as himself, without obeying the Law?

Is that what threatened to put them into bondage? Does it put you into bondage to fulfill Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:34?

If the answer is "No, it does not put me into bondage", then neither does it put you (or the Galatians or anyone else for that matter) into bondage to obey Exodus 20:8-11.

So, the bondage Paul warned of, was something else entirely. The Galatians were banking on circumcision and old covenantal law keeping as the means to inherit eternal life. That's the bondage. New Covenant saints who remember the sabbath, to keep it holy, are only in danger if or when they allow their obedience to that command usurp and trump their saving faith in the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. If they keep Jesus as the author and finisher of their faith, and uphold that they are saved by grace through faith, and out of love and a desire to please God, obey the commandments of God, they aren't in any danger at all of finding themselves in bondage of any sort.

As a bishop and elder, have you ever had to remove a member from an assembly due to some unrepentant sin, like fornication, or covetousness, or idolatry, or blasphemy, or drunkenness, or extortion (See 1 Corinthians 5:11)?

If so, upon what basis did you do so, if not for 1 Corinthians 5:13, which is a quotation from Deuteronomy 13:5. So, did obeying Paul's instructions as justified and made necessary by Deuteronomy 13:5 put you into bondage? If not, why not?

I think you see where I am going. We cannot separate our faith in the Son of God from the commandments of the God and Father of that Son.

You may not realize it, but I would venture to say there are all kinds of laws from the OT you easily and readily obey, because you know they are right and that doing so is right and pleases God. And yet, you are not in bondage? Do you attempt to be holy, since God is holy? That's Leviticus 11:44-45, 19:2, and 20:26. Have you diligently taught your children that the LORD our God is one? That is Deuteronomy 6:7. Do you make sure you do not partake of the bread and cup of the Lord and the bread and cup of devils, because what the Gentiles sacrifice to are devils? That's Deuteronomy 32:17.

How many more can we come up with if we tried?

But somehow Exodus 20:8-11 is off-limits as engendering bondage? That doesn't make sense to me.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #214  
Old 12-31-2019, 08:06 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
So . . .
Esaias, when do you think the Mosaic law will end?
Do you believe it is never ending?
I’m referring to the statutes other than sacrificing animals etc..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
We MUST always remember that the new covenant is superior to the old covenant. And that the new covenant is NOT just the old covenant with a new set of plugs and a rebuilt carburetor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
EB, can you think of ANY differences in the new covenant and the old? Because it is beginning to sound like you believe they are the same!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
Jesus was a law keeper.
Made of a woman.

Gal.4
[4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5] To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

He didn’t fulfill the law upon His birth, but upon His crucifixion.
You might ask about Hebrews 8:13:

Hebrews 8:13 (AV)
In that he saith,
A new covenant, he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away


Some say this points to 70 AD.

The Levitical priesthood did function in that interim period, with supernatural events occurring.

Tithemeister also pointed to this verse:

2 Cor 3:13 (AV)
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face,
that the children of Israel could not stedfastly
look to the end of that which is abolished:

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-31-2019 at 09:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #215  
Old 12-31-2019, 08:21 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
On Saturday certain modern Rabbinical Jews walk to the synagogue. Now, do you not travel on Saturday? You do, because it doesn't mean anything to you. Matter of fact you would look at those Jews as in bondage because of their belief, and therefore gas your car as you sped by them.
Personally I have great respect for communities who walk, not drive, on the sabbath.

This includes places like Uchee Pines (Adventist). In fact, it was the visceral-spiritual rhythm that piqued my interest, and began studies. My upbringing in social-conservative Judaism was not particularly sabbath-focused. One of the first books I read at Uchee was by Allen Walker, The Law and the Sabbath.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-31-2019 at 09:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #216  
Old 12-31-2019, 08:31 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Whether you keep Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or non day, you have to admit that there is no teaching against the sabbath found in the ten commandments. Jesus didn't make it an issue.
in the many disputes with the Pharisees involving Sabbath, Jesus always accepted that they had the right day. Jesus shared with them more excellently as to the nature of the day, not the time of the day.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-31-2019 at 09:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #217  
Old 12-31-2019, 08:38 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Has our actual calendar changed since the Sabbath was instituted?
The creation sabbath is trans-calendrical.

1-2-3-4-5-6-shabbat

Solid through any calendar changes.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 12-31-2019 at 09:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #218  
Old 12-31-2019, 09:30 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Never before Moses was any man commanded to keep sabbath.
Many believe that Abraham was aware of the creation sabbath, and kept the day.

Genesis 26:5 (AV)
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,
and kept my charge, my commandments,
my statutes, and my laws.


Thus the command to the Israelites was to "remember", not to "institute", and the connection was made to the creation.

Exodos 20:8-11 (AV)
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle,
nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Reply With Quote
  #219  
Old 12-31-2019, 09:43 AM
Ehud Ehud is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 540
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Many believe that Abraham was aware of the creation sabbath, and kept the day.

Genesis 26:5 (AV)
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice,
and kept my charge, my commandments,
my statutes, and my laws.


Thus the command to the Israelites was to "remember", not to "institute", and the connection was made to the creation.

Exodos 20:8-11 (AV)
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work,
thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle,
nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Good morning, Bro. Avery!

The word 'remember' -- in our glorious English language -- doesn't necessarily mean to not forget a past happening. It can also mean to not forget to do something in the future. "Remember to lock your doors," wouldn't mean to think about all of those times you locked your doors in the past, rather it would mean pay attention and don't forget to lock your doors in the future. (Poorly worded, but you get the idea.) Do you happen to know if the Hebrew word for 'remember' carries the same such meanings, or if the word has a single past-oriented meaning?
Reply With Quote
  #220  
Old 12-31-2019, 11:50 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,418
Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehud View Post
Do you happen to know if the Hebrew word for 'remember' carries the same such meanings, or if the word has a single past-oriented meaning?
Nope. Actually the past would not be a "single past-oriented meaning." It can be past and future. The denial of the verse significance would need a "single future-oriented meaning".

However, that is a difficult position, as the scripture itself points back:

... For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


And since the decalogue creation sabbath has multiple attestations, OT and NT, it is a minor issue. And simply fits perfectly with the note about Abraham. Rather than being a singular "proof text".
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sunday houston Fellowship Hall 4 08-27-2012 12:33 PM
Sunday supertone Fellowship Hall 1 04-08-2011 06:39 AM
What WE did this Sunday RandyWayne The Playground 7 03-24-2009 07:41 AM
this sunday Sister Alvear Fellowship Hall 3 10-10-2008 08:22 PM
With AFF Down - What Did You Do on Sunday? rgcraig Fellowship Hall 25 04-28-2008 06:13 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Praxeas
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.