Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
But you said the death being spoken of in Hebrews is a spiritual death. So that would mean you understand Hebrews to be saying "for as it is appointed unto men once to die (spiritually) and after that the judgment..."
So I was asking if you could explain what that means? What is the spiritual death Paul is speaking of? How is it "appointed unto men"? What does that mean?
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Moreover I notice it says "it is appointed unto men to die
once". If there is a spiritual death as well as a physical death, then wouldn't that mean it is appointed unto men to die
twice? Either that, or one of them is not death. But the fact we use the terms spiritual death and physical death, denoting a distinction between them, proves they are both considered death. So therefore...?
I guess the question really is, "How did the author of Hebrews intend his words to be understood, and how would the readers have understood his words?" Did the author and the audience both have an understanding that death means spiritual death unless somehow specified to be physical death? Or would it be vice versa? That is, the usual sense of "death" or "to die" would mean physical death unless otherwise specified?
Or maybe "to die" is simply that, to die (includes physical death) and other uses of the term are simply metaphors or similes or analogies borrowing from the basic meaning? Which would imply that the context would indicate that a metaphorical or analogous usage is being employed to prevent the reader from being confused about what is being meant?
Since the comparison in Hebrews is between men being appointed to die once, and Christ suffering once (in which he actually died), it seems everything indicates the author is meaning simple death (physical or "natural" death). Especially since the main contrast is between the animal sacrifices and Christ's death, and between the repeated (more than once) offering of the Day of Atonement (involving animals dying) compared to the one and only offering of Christ as the ultimate Atonement (during which He died).
It seems to me that Paul is not at all speaking about some "spiritual death" or "spiritual dying", but real actual death and dying. That this is appointed unto men is simply the general reality of the Divine decree that mankind is not allowed to live forever, but that all must die (because, as Paul points out in Romans, all have sinned). So humans have a Divine decree established by God they they shall die and then after that they are to be judged.
Note: That it is appointed unto men to "die once" does not rule out the reality of the "second death" (why is it called the SECOND death? In what way is it the SECOND?) because the second death is not
appointed unto anyone, it depends upon how they are judged. Before you were born you were appointed to die once, but you were NOT appointed to the lake of fire. (This appears to be a solid refutation of Calvinism by the way. The only death to which men are appointed is the one which everybody experiences, and even Christ experienced this as part of His identification with us. But the final judgment is NOT a priori determined or appointed for anybody. They must be judged first.)
On the other hand, if we take Paul to be speaking about "spiritual death" or some other death than the one everybody faces, then quite honestly I can't make heads or tails out of how this is "appointed" to men and then "after that" the judgment. In fact, the whole thing just seems to fall apart.
But maybe I don't understand what is being claimed. That's why I was asking Loren to clarify.
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