Initial evidence

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The model of what we see frequently is one individual pontificating to a large crowd. Which there is a precedence for this as Jesus, and Paul would address large crowds. But also we see where in a church family gathering to learn what was addressed to the large crowd. The details was then offered to them in a Q&A. While back one of my brothers were visiting from another state in the U.S. I offered him the pulpit. He preached a message. Then before he climbed down, I offered the church family to question him on what he taught. He was shocked. Later he told me he wasn’t expecting that. I acknowledge his surprise, and told him the only way they learned in the Bible paradigm is through Q&A. “Some” ministers and PROPHETS don’t like to be put on the spot in front of the group. While on some issues we are to take things on a one on one in private. When dealing with offenses. Yet, we are admonished if an elder refuses council we are to take it to the front of the larger body. Where we rebuke before all so all ( the elders ) will have respect for their office. People see church leadership as Apostles, Bishops, as presidents, kings. Pastors in the same role. Yet, the Bible doesn’t have that model for Jesus’ church family. Apostolic brothers and sisters have respect for the office of leadership. But, if the preacher doesn’t have respect for that office, they aren’t coming against that office. They are coming against the brother holding a title he is misusing. Because he is doing a lousy job. If you desire the office you desire a good thing. But understand you are point man with other point men who get shot at first. The greater condemnation. It’s not about the money, and loving the money creates evil in the heart. It must be about allowing Jesus to run the church family. A family which you are just a brother, not a mother, and certainly NOT a Father.

I find this post to be intriguing. I heartily agree that this is how church should be conducted. However I haven’t personally experienced this myself, at least in many years.

Several years ago I was In Bible study with a former local television weather forecaster who was fairly famous as such. He had quit his television career and become a pastor of a charismatic church. He wound up visiting our small Bible study for reasons that I don’t recall. But, he made a statement that stuck with me. He said big churches can’t do potluck. Having attended both big and small churches in my life I realized that he was correct. Potluck dinners are great. Over the years you learn whose dishes are your favorite and whose coconut cake is the best.

But, potluck isn’t the only thing that big churches can’t do. I think your example is another that is highly unlikely to take place in a larger church. For this reason I sometimes attend home churches when I am invited and I am so impressed. It makes me want to start one sometimes.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Not saying that Amanah is looking for approval from the greater whole of Churchdom. But, for brethren of like precious faith.

I found it odd because I don’t believe that isolation is normal for a church of any size. If there are four? You have Fellowship. If there are fifteen or fifteen hundred? You fellowship. It just doesn’t seem like isolation to me. In the New Testament church they met from house to house, breaking bread. Sounds like a party to me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I found it odd because I don’t believe that isolation is normal for a church of any size. If there are four? You have Fellowship. If there are fifteen or fifteen hundred? You fellowship. It just doesn’t seem like isolation to me. In the New Testament church they met from house to house, breaking bread. Sounds like a party to me.

Again, I believe the isolation is doctrinal not ecclesiastical.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I find this post to be intriguing. I heartily agree that this is how church should be conducted. However I haven’t personally experienced this myself, at least in many years.

Several years ago I was In Bible study with a former local television weather forecaster who was fairly famous as such. He had quit his television career and become a pastor of a charismatic church. He wound up visiting our small Bible study for reasons that I don’t recall. But, he made a statement that stuck with me. He said big churches can’t do potluck. Having attended both big and small churches in my life I realized that he was correct. Potluck dinners are great. Over the years you learn whose dishes are your favorite and whose coconut cake is the best.

But, potluck isn’t the only thing that big churches can’t do. I think your example is another that is highly unlikely to take place in a larger church. For this reason I sometimes attend home churches when I am invited and I am so impressed. It makes me want to start one sometimes.

Hence the reason “cell groups” came to be. They were to build fellowship. Yet, the cell group movement had problem as well. Because of the leadership model within some organizations. If you run a Orwellian Church you end up disbanding the cell groups. Problems are nuanced, and complicated. But, when we have church without the Holy Ghost, and men, who have fragile egos. You end up with 1984 revisited or a Circus Side Show.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I find this post to be intriguing. I heartily agree that this is how church should be conducted. However I haven’t personally experienced this myself, at least in many years.

Several years ago I was In Bible study with a former local television weather forecaster who was fairly famous as such. He had quit his television career and become a pastor of a charismatic church. He wound up visiting our small Bible study for reasons that I don’t recall. But, he made a statement that stuck with me. He said big churches can’t do potluck. Having attended both big and small churches in my life I realized that he was correct. Potluck dinners are great. Over the years you learn whose dishes are your favorite and whose coconut cake is the best.

But, potluck isn’t the only thing that big churches can’t do. I think your example is another that is highly unlikely to take place in a larger church. For this reason I sometimes attend home churches when I am invited and I am so impressed. It makes me want to start one sometimes.

There is a church we occasionally visit out of state. They have I estimate a couple hundred members. They are about as big as the average mid-sized UPC. They do potluck.

Regarding starting a house church... I think before doing that, you would need to be sure you have a grasp of the biblical model. I say that not because I don't think you do, but because if we are going to do Bible things we ought to do them in Bible ways, amen? And that means that there are, as far as I can see at least, TWO models in Scripture for "starting churches".

One is the missionary-apostle approach, where a person called of God to preach to the lost goes forth and preaches and "wins converts" (I hate that terminology, but we run what we brung). Those new converts are established as a church by the missionary, and when they are matured he goes on to continue establishing churches.

The second is the church-host approach:

Romans 16:23 KJV
Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

Romans 16:3-5 KJV
Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: [4] Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. [5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Colossians 4:15 KJV
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Philemon 1:1-2 KJV
Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, [2] And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:

These people apparently made their homes available for the brethren to meet at. they aren't necessarily preachers, or apostles, or pastors, or prophets, or whatever. They aren't necessarily specified to be elders or even deacons. They are "hosts". they provide a place for Christians to meet, they serve as hosts, possibly also helping to make connections and networking between Christians (how else did anyone figure out where to go have church?), possibly providing some of the potluck if necessary, basically facilitating whatever needs to be facilitated to have a fellowship of believers. Obviously, in a fully functioning assembly, they will be working closely with teachers, elders, apostles, evangelists, etc. But you gotta start somewhere, amen?

Apparently, even the sisters can be a host:

Acts 16:13-15 KJV
And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. [14] And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. [15] And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Apparently, this is the model the original missionary-apostles were to follow:

Matthew 10:11-13 KJV
And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. [12] And when ye come into an house, salute it. [13] And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

Luke 10:5-7 KJV
And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. [6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. [7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

So "starting a house church" doesn't always mean setting oneself up as a pastor or apostle or whatever, it can simply mean providing a place for Christians to meet and helping to meet their needs as a community of believers.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There is a church we occasionally visit out of state. They have I estimate a couple hundred members. They are about as big as the average mid-sized UPC. They do potluck.

Regarding starting a house church... I think before doing that, you would need to be sure you have a grasp of the biblical model. I say that not because I don't think you do, but because if we are going to do Bible things we ought to do them in Bible ways, amen? And that means that there are, as far as I can see at least, TWO models in Scripture for "starting churches".

One is the missionary-apostle approach, where a person called of God to preach to the lost goes forth and preaches and "wins converts" (I hate that terminology, but we run what we brung). Those new converts are established as a church by the missionary, and when they are matured he goes on to continue establishing churches.

The second is the church-host approach:

Romans 16:23 KJV
Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

Romans 16:3-5 KJV
Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: [4] Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. [5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

Colossians 4:15 KJV
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

Philemon 1:1-2 KJV
Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, [2] And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:

These people apparently made their homes available for the brethren to meet at. they aren't necessarily preachers, or apostles, or pastors, or prophets, or whatever. They aren't necessarily specified to be elders or even deacons. They are "hosts". they provide a place for Christians to meet, they serve as hosts, possibly also helping to make connections and networking between Christians (how else did anyone figure out where to go have church?), possibly providing some of the potluck if necessary, basically facilitating whatever needs to be facilitated to have a fellowship of believers. Obviously, in a fully functioning assembly, they will be working closely with teachers, elders, apostles, evangelists, etc. But you gotta start somewhere, amen?

Apparently, even the sisters can be a host:

Acts 16:13-15 KJV
And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. [14] And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. [15] And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Apparently, this is the model the original missionary-apostles were to follow:

Matthew 10:11-13 KJV
And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. [12] And when ye come into an house, salute it. [13] And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

Luke 10:5-7 KJV
And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. [6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. [7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

So "starting a house church" doesn't always mean setting oneself up as a pastor or apostle or whatever, it can simply mean providing a place for Christians to meet and helping to meet their needs as a community of believers.

Thank you. I think I am talking about the host model. Or where the host site is provided by certain families in a rotation. I’m not really thinking of the conventional pastor model but more so the plural eldership model. I’m certainly not thinking of being a pastor authority. More of a host.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you. I think I am talking about the host model. Or where the host site is provided by certain families in a rotation. I’m not really thinking of the conventional pastor model but more so the plural eldership model. I’m certainly not thinking of being a pastor authority. More of a host.

You would need to find a few people who agree with your doctrine to start, right? Theology, Soteriology, Eschatology, ect

Could probably start by drafting a statement of faith and see if anyone within 100 miles agrees.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

You would need to find a few people who agree with your doctrine to start, right? Theology, Soteriology, Eschatology, ect

Could probably start by drafting a statement of faith and see if anyone within 100 miles agrees.

Maybe it’s just a thought. I have attended a few services and certainly felt a heavy anointing and a sense that they were consistent with the New Testament church model.

As for a statement of faith? Let me tell this story.

I have a brother in law who is a UPCI pastor. He has come to me and asked my advice on things many times. We discuss and debate doctrine and scripture. One day I asked about some doctrine, it’s not needful to the narrative to say what it was, and I honestly don’t remember. But I do remember his response.

Well the manual (UPCI) says this- at which point I interrupted him and asked: If the manual says the same thing as the Bible, then why do we need it?
And if the manual says something different from the Bible, then why do we want it?

The problem is that I have noticed that when we as humans start drafting papers that are extra biblical, we tend to give them more respect than we do the very words of God. It’s another level of arrogance in my opinion. As though if God had only had us available to advise Him, then He could have gotten it right. So I’m not big on all that stuff. They are often designed to give certain people more influence, power and money than others. When you think about it, isn’t that kind of what the Pharisees did?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Maybe it’s just a thought. I have attended a few services and certainly felt a heavy anointing and a sense that they were consistent with the New Testament church model.

As for a statement of faith? Let me tell this story.

I have a brother in law who is a UPCI pastor. He has come to me and asked my advice on things many times. We discuss and debate doctrine and scripture. One day I asked about some doctrine, it’s not needful to the narrative to say what it was, and I honestly don’t remember. But I do remember his response.

Well the manual (UPCI) says this- at which point I interrupted him and asked: If the manual says the same thing as the Bible, then why do we need it?
And if the manual says something different from the Bible, then why do we want it?

The problem is that I have noticed that when we as humans start drafting papers that are extra biblical, we tend to give them more respect than we do the very words of God. It’s another level of arrogance in my opinion. As though if God had only had us available to advise Him, then He could have gotten it right. So I’m not big on all that stuff. They are often designed to give certain people more influence, power and money than others. When you think about it, isn’t that kind of what the Pharisees did?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you. I think I am talking about the host model. Or where the host site is provided by certain families in a rotation. I’m not really thinking of the conventional pastor model but more so the plural eldership model. I’m certainly not thinking of being a pastor authority. More of a host.

Well there you go!