The Original Matthew 28:19 Restored

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Steve Avery, has done us a great service by pointing our discussion in the right direction.

No he has not.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established.
now show me another scripture that has the phrase "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit"

However I can show you plenty of scriptures that do say "In my name".

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

it was Pantænus or one of his disciples; Clement or Alexander who most probably translated the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew into Greek, These three individuals stand out as the most likely persons to have altered the text in Matthew 28:19 when the translation was done into Greek; that is probably the reason that no Greek manuscripts with a different text have been found, because there are none. That original Hebrew Gospel was probably destroyed, so that is why there is no evidence in Greek. Pantænus died in AD 216.

You wrote this in 2015.

Is this still your position today?

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Very creative.
What do you do with Irenaeus mentioning Matthew, referencing verses from Matthew including Matthew 28:19 ... all before your date for the Greek Matthew?

And what do you do with these references from before or close to your Greek Matthew?
(this can use a fuller check and rehash)

Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD) First Apology
Irenaeus – (2nd century) Against Heresies
Diatessoran (Tatian, c.175 AD)
Didache (c. 2nd century)
Apostolic Teachings (2nd Century) (x references)
The Ecclesiastical Canons of the Same Holy Apostles
Tertullian – (c. 200 AD) On Baptism.– Chapter XIII.
Against Praxeas
Prescription against Heretics
Hippolytus (c.200 AD) -Against the Heresy of One Noetus

These gentlemen were referencing the traditional Matthew 28:19 text.

I'll plan on tweaking this list later, eg. including the four quotes from Cyprian.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Poor exegesis at work. Ignore every word from God, unless he repeats it within the Bible.

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

In the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established. now show me another scripture that has the phrase "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" However I can show you plenty of scriptures that do say "In my name".

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

So you do not accept this unless there is another scripture to establish the point?

Maybe you accept the heavenly witnesses, to provide the second scripture?

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Do you realize how oneness folks see the Matthew 28:19 command fulfilled?

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Pope Stephen called Cyprian the bishop of Carthage “a false Christ and a false apostle, and a deceitful worker” and excommunicated him for his opposition to baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, he also disfellowship Firmilian bishop of Caesarea for he also refused to accept baptism in Jesus’ name as valid.

This has nothing to do with the text of the Bible.

The Assembly of God booted out groups who baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Yet both sides of the dispute had the exact same Bible, with the pure Matthew 28:19 verse.

You are apparently not really understanding of the interpretation issues.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Steve Avery, has done us a great service by pointing our discussion in the right direction.

Thanks, Scott, and brother Benincasa.

And I first saw this problem around 2004 when I was hosting a Messianic apologetic forum on yahoogroups. Then around 2007 on the Good News Cafe. (Actually even earlier in Israel, maybe 2002 or the 1990s, with a Unitarianish group from Ma'ale Adumim.)

And I had always been taught the wonderful harmony of the Matthew verse with the Acts verses, as a fundamental doctrinal understanding.

Here is what I wrote last year on this forum, it still applies.

AFF
Scholars find Matt.28:19 to be fraudulent.
Steven Avery - May 13, 2016
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...8&postcount=76

And I think I will point out that Apostolic circles, that historically were Authorised Version users in the south, and split in other areas between the AV and modern versions, have something of a plague in their midst of Bible correction.

When I looked into Matthew 28:19 some years ago, which is about the dumbest Bible correction attempt going, I noticed Marvin Arnold, Clinton T. Willis, Cohen Reckhart, Marion Fretwell, Mark Kennicott, and Randall Duane Hughes among those with some sort of apostolic perspective that were taking this absurd position against the purity of the Bible. They were all trying to run with the Conybeare stuff and had close to zero ability to actually look at the evidences forthrightly.

Fortunately, this forum has a number of posters with clarity of mind and a solid Bible text background and the nonsense gets answered with some pizazz.

My point is simple. You can not get around the centrality of the Bible being the pure and perfect word of God. Changing the Bible to (supposedly, not really) match your doctrinal preferences is a total and unmitigated disaster. The pure Bible should inform your doctrines, and if you don't like the way a verse and your doctrines clash, either look for a deeper understanding or change your doctrines. Don't try to change the word of God!

We have to first seek to know God's pure word. When the Bible can be changed to match your preferences you have nothing but 1,000 personal versions, and mindless chatter.

And I personally believe that this extends also to 1 Timothy 3:16 "God was manifest in the flesh.." and Acts 8:37 with the baptism testimony of faith and the heavenly witnesses and John 1:18 the only begotten Son and "Father, forgive them" and the Pericope Auldterae and the Mark ending and other salient verses. Although I understand that on a forum like this you will have "modern version" users working with the variant omissions and corruptions. At least there we can have a bit of vibrant study and teaching and sharing, iron sharpeneth.

As for the black hole of the movement that is contra the Matthew 28:19 traditional text, I say the proponents are enemies of the purity of the Bible and should be marked and noted accordingly. In some cases, they are innocent dupes, in others .. not so innocent. There are spiritual principalities at work. Sometimes we have to personally take a stand and set up a line of demarcation.

Steven

[navygoat1998]

Honestly it has been my pleasure to follow this thread. Thank you to all that have contributed. Blessings in Jesus Name!

[houston]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Honestly it has been my pleasure to follow this thread. Thank you to all that have contributed. Blessings in Jesus Name!

You mean blessings in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by houston

You mean blessings in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

That is what I said

[Steven Avery]

Let's take a little side-step to the history before continuing with more Ante-Nicene (way before Eusebius) references.

This theory was put forth by a gentleman, Fredrick Cornwallis Conybeare (1856-1924) who simply did not believe that we have a pure Bible anywhere.

Thus he made this prediction, which failed miserably.

Hibbert Journal (1902)
Three Early Doctrinal Modifications of the Text of the Gospels.
Fredrick Cornwallis Conybeare
https://books.google.com/books?id=eiQedTzO874C&pg=PA113

It may confidently be predicted that when the Greek and Latin fathers who wrote before 400 have been more carefully edited than hitherto from the best codices, scores of old readings will be restored in the text of the N.T. of which no trace remains in any Greek MS.

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Now we have a major church Council, before Nicea, before Eusebius.
Cyprian presided over the council, and here we have four independent testimonies:

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The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian. 257 AD
The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics

Lucius of Castra Galbae
https://books.google.com/books?id=EjcYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA203
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-124.htm

Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, ‘Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men.’ And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, ‘All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’

====================

Munnulus of Girba
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0508.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=G7cTOhQD4EUC&pg=PA204

Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother the Catholic Church, brethren, has always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19 Since, then, we manifestly know that heretics have not either Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit, they ought, when they come to the Church our Mother, truly to be born again and to be baptized; that the cancer which they had, and the anger of damnation, and the witchery of error, may be sanctified by the holy and heavenly layer.

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Euchratius of Thenae
https://books.google.com/books?id=EcA7AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA208
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0508.htm

Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: ‘Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Thus the false and wicked baptism of heretics must be rejected by us, and refuted with all detestation, from whose mouth is expressed poison, not life, not celestial grace, but blasphemy of the Trinity.

====================

Vincentius of Thibaris
https://books.google.com/books?id=EcA7AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA210
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0508.htm

Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, ‘Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons.’ And in another place: ‘Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’

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So while these gentlemen may have been on the wrong doctrinal side, there is no doubt about how Matthew 28:19 read in their Bibles.

Steven