CeCe Winans under fire for singing at Gay church

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by tv1a

About 10 minutes. That's about all I can handle of myself. Although I did make the congregation suffer for about 45 minutes tonight.

Whatz you preaching about tonite?

[tv1a]

I taught about disciplining children, and how it should be done.

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Whatz you preaching about tonite?

[Prodigal]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

ok.
and after saying all that...your point is what exactly?

My point exactly is the difference between the hype of hope and the reality of results.

Let's examine the results before making claims of hope.

Whether your view is your interpretation of a biblically based cause and cure, or a clinically based view of cause and cure, the question is do any of these attempts really work?

Medical attempts to "cure" homosexuality have included surgical treatments such as hysterectomy, ovariectomy, clitoridectomy, castration, vasectomy, pudic nerve surgery, and lobotomy. Substance-based treatment attempts have included hormone treatment, pharmacologic shock treatment and treatment with sexual stimulants and sexual depressants. Other attempts include aversion therapy, electroshock treatment, group therapy, hypnosis,and psychoanalysis.

While some of these, including the use of electric shock and nausea-inducing drugs, are still used, even today's prominent conversion therapists who advocate psychoanalytic conversion denounce the other methods as "quackeries".

Religious attempts to "cure" homosexuality have included prayer, reparative therapy, conversion therapy, celebate lifestyle, marraige, and even the exorcism of a homosexual demon.

From the available data, four studies have reported a "success" rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.5 and 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study.

The one thing all of these methods have in common is that they all fail miserably. I'd like to talk to whomever has experienced a change in their sexual orientation as a result of prayer, exorcism, or therapy.

Anxiously waiting. PM me.

[Arphaxad]

"When one is possessed they cannot cry out to God because that spirit will not let them." quote by New Wine,post 34.
I heard a story about some guy that was possessed by a legion of demons that ran up to Jesus and worshipped Him.

ARPH

[tv1a]

Be careful. You're messing up someone's theology.

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

"When one is possessed they cannot cry out to God because that spirit will not let them." quote by New Wine,post 34.
I heard a story about some guy that was possessed by a legion of demons that ran up to Jesus and worshipped Him.

ARPH

[ChristopherHall]

Here's a modified version of another post I had posted elsewhere,
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=294

We had an interesting study tonight in our men's meeting. The title of the discussion was, "Loving Flawed People". We covered the following passage:

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." - John 8:1-11

Notice that Jesus didn't condone the sin...however, he didn't allow the Pharisees to criminalize the sinner in his presence in their efforts to accuse him either. Instead he convicted their own hearts by reminding them that they too are sinners.

I'm taking a little liberty here, but could it also read?....

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught in homosexuality. They made him stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this man was caught in the act of homosexuality. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such men. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at him." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the man still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked him, "Man, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," he said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Homosexuality is a sin. All sin alienates from a Holy God. Homosexuals typically have multiple partners and run the greatest risk of contracting disease. The depression and guilt over this sin can crush the soul. That is why I hate the sin. However, I'm not ashamed to profess that I love the homosexual sinner. Those of us who are straight will never know how horrible it is to be in their condition. Although the world sees them as "gay", they are often the most tormented souls on earth.

Saint of God, you're a sinner saved by God's grace and covered in his mercies. All your "righteousness" is as filthy rags in God's sight. You've not impressed God in any way. You're no more righteous than the homosexual sinner in God's eyes. Both you and the homosexual are immeasurably debased, even on your good days. And I have news for you...the very same blood that cried out in mercy for your salvation cries out for the homosexual sinner.

[ChristopherHall]

I’m not a scientist, so I leave the science to the scientists. We all have flesh. And each of us has certain inclinations or predispositions toward some form of sin. If there is a biological aspect to this, it only proves that our flesh is indeed fallen and prone to sin. There are infirmities of the flesh and should science prove that there is a biological factor, I know that our God is a healer. This would explain why “counseling” never seems to “cure” them. Maybe they are in need of a miraculous deliverance that heals both the body and the heart.

I try to put myself into other people’s shoes. I can honestly say that being straight wasn’t a choice for me. For many of them they say that from their earliest years the same gender more appealing in that way then the opposite gender. I didn’t choose my preference, nor could I just up and choose to be other than straight. Maybe they didn’t “choose” their preference. But in both cases….both myself and each of them has the power to choose rather we act on those preferences. Being straight I have an advantage perhaps; I can choose to act on and enjoy my preferences within the context of marriage. They can’t. This is why some scholars think that some who were of this inclination may have chosen to be eunuchs in ancient times. Maybe they chose to be eunuchs, unmarried servants, for the kingdom’s sake so as to not violate the Law of God. Certainly such a life would have its challenges and temptations, but who’s to say. Maybe they lived a life of celibacy and service.

“His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.” – Matthew 19:10-12

So if one isn’t entirely set free of their same gender attraction, maybe they should be welcomed among us if they are not acting on their attraction. We all have our individual struggles with our flesh. But sadly, baring a miracle, I don’t see them being entirely set free by choosing to suddenly be straight or counseling. It will take a unique touch of miraculous healing from God.

Are they born this way or is it a choice? Answer: I don’t know. Maybe both. As I learn more about it I might feel comfortable enough to say one way or another with some degree of certainty. All I know is that for straight people it's both biological and a choice. We either choose to act on our biological impulses or we choose not to. So responsiblity is still upon the individual for their actions.

[ChristopherHall]

I've tried to study it out and apparently some scholars say that there are three types of eunuchs in ancient history.

- Men who had been castrated.

- Men who were born with deficient male anatomy.

- Men who voluntarily chose not to marry.

According to some scholars those men who voluntarily chose to be a eunuch and rejected marriage as a life choice are described in the Babylonian Talmud. These are described as being, "He whose voice is abnormal so that one cannot distinguish whether it is that of a man or of a woman." So some scholars think that men with homosexual inclinations may have chosen to voluntarily live the life of a eunuch in biblical times.

I once read about how homosexual brains react to same gender pheromone whereas they don't respond to opposite gender pheromone. So there may be a biological component indicating a "pre-disposition" or "inclination" toward this attraction. But clearly one has to choose to give into such attraction just as ordinary males or females would normal attraction. So there is a choice involved even if on some level there's a biological component.

But I have this much to say...

If homosexuality is entirely a choice...I know a Jesus that forgives.

If homosexuality is the result of abuse or pain....I know a Jesus that mends and restores.

If homosexuality is the result of biology on some level...I know a Jesus that can miraculously heal the infirmities of our flesh.

I personally don't believe homosexuals can be counseled into being straight. I believe that homosexuals who are truly seeking God's mercy and grace need a miracle to be set free. Obviously much patience and understanding is needed to minister to struggling homosexuals.

Just my opinion.

[GodsBabyGirl]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I've tried to study it out and apparently some scholars say that there are three types of eunuchs in ancient history.

- Men who had been castrated.

- Men who were born with deficient male anatomy.

- Men who voluntarily chose not to marry.

According to some scholars those men who voluntarily chose to be a eunuch and rejected marriage as a life choice are described in the Babylonian Talmud. These are described as being, "He whose voice is abnormal so that one cannot distinguish whether it is that of a man or of a woman." So some scholars think that men with homosexual inclinations may have chosen to voluntarily live the life of a eunuch in biblical times.

I once read about how homosexual brains react to same gender pheromone whereas they don't respond to opposite gender pheromone. So there may be a biological component indicating a "pre-disposition" or "inclination" toward this attraction. But clearly one has to choose to give into such attraction just as ordinary males or females would normal attraction. So there is a choice involved even if on some level there's a biological component.

But I have this much to say...

If homosexuality is entirely a choice...I know a Jesus that forgives.

If homosexuality is the result of abuse or pain....I know a Jesus that mends and restores.

If homosexuality is the result of biology on some level...I know a Jesus that can miraculously heal the infirmities of our flesh.

I personally don't believe homosexuals can be counseled into being straight. I believe that homosexuals who are truly seeking God's mercy and grace need a miracle to be set free. Obviously much patience and understanding is needed to minister to struggling homosexuals.

Just my opinion.

According to their faith, let it be done unto them...

[Sister Alvear]

Whatever it might be..we could discuss forever... if they are born that way or not...if it is a sickness or not and on and on...one thing we do KNOW it is not the plan of God...and there is healing and strength that comes through Jesus to change.