The State of the UPC

[A.W. Bowman]

Actually, God has always had a 'system'. The problem is that man has never been satisfied with it - he always finds where God missed up, failed in His instructions and didn't see or understand what was actually required. Mankind has always questioned God's intent, methods, and plans.

The results have always been the same: I know at least as much as God, perhaps more. Therefore I will take matters into my own hands, alter His instructions (verbal and written) to fit my reality by creating improvements (adding to and diminish from) His word so that God's deficiencies can be corrected.

From the Garden of Eden until today, man has express his dissatisfaction with God's plan and instructions for a righteous life - that was the failure of the last covenant God made with man - it was not the covenant its self that was flawed, it is man's unwillingness to obey God!

All of the instructions in righteousness, all of the religious laws, standards, rules and regulations stem from that same broken nature of man, i.e. the unwillingness to love God (our creator and master), and our refusal to love our brothers and sisters as fellow creations and equal before the same God. Remember, it is upon these two commandments that everything else hangs! But, even with the claim of having God's own Spirit, we still refuse to accept and submit to these two foundational requirements.

Even within the body of Christ, we strive to be 'better' than our brothers and sisters. To prove to them, ourselves, and to God that we are more holy (consecrated, worthy of God love and blessings), spiritual (higher in calling, gifting, ministry, and relationship with God) than those around us. And, like Diotrephes, we have those who demand preeminence within the local assemblies, and if they do not get the position of choice, they will go else where - even to starting their own congregation(s) and calling themselves a 'man of God'.

No, my friends, we do not come together as a body and serve one another and thereby serve God, we are more like cancer cells, fighting not only against one another and our own selves (to our own self destruction), but even against God Himself. What I find so sad, is that we (yes, even I) take pride in these acts of rebellion against God - and we then go to such great lengths to justify ourselves.

Is it not time for a change of heart?

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Paul wrote thus:

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

All this "organic church" stuff sounds noble and pure and sweet, but the fact is there are expectations that God has concerning our conduct and the work of the Kingdom.

Lone Rangers for Jesus are not the plan of the New testament Church.

Tom T. Hall may believe him and Jesus have their own thing going, but Jesus died to purchase a Church, not a bunch of free agents.

Our walk with God is an intensely personal thing, but the Church is a Body. And the Body is connected member to member.

I am tempted to post a little study on grace that would blow some of you liberated folks' dress tails up.

Amen!

The Holy Spirit baptizes believers into the body of Christ.

Anyone who resists fellowship with the body resists the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who rejects the principle of submission within the body rejects the Lordship of Christ.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

If breath and body were all that were needed, we wouldn't have the epistles and we wouldn't need the fivefold ministry.

Babies are born with breath and body, but they won't survive without some care and instruction.

Obedient breath and body.

We are diluting terms in hoping they don't stick the way they were used.

Christianity is not about a "system," though there are traditions, church polity and even expectations. But to deduce the heart of the Church down to a system is to take something as dynamic as music down to the notes on a sheet.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Paul wrote thus:

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

All this "organic church" stuff sounds noble and pure and sweet, but the fact is there are expectations that God has concerning our conduct and the work of the Kingdom.

Lone Rangers for Jesus are not the plan of the New testament Church.

Tom T. Hall may believe him and Jesus have their own thing going, but Jesus died to purchase a Church, not a bunch of free agents.

Our walk with God is an intensely personal thing, but the Church is a Body. And the Body is connected member to member.

I am tempted to post a little study on grace that would blow some of you liberated folks' dress tails up.

Amen

All that I have said has not had in view dismissing the corporate view of the Church. I'm not sure where this "Amen Train" came from.

Saying that Christianity should not be described as a "system" is not the same as saying we should all rent log cabins, and live in monasteries by ourselves so that we can live the Gospel. You won't find anyone as passionate about the fact that the Gospel works and thrives in community only... that is, as a family. The Gospel without community is not how it works. And fulfilling the Missio Dei is impossible without family.

[Coonskinner]

Yessir, only a knothead would think a feller could get a missio dei done all by his lonesome.

[Tell_Sackett]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I see a higher percentage of young preachers at the more conservative meetings than I do the general UPC events.

I think the higher degree of respect and esteem for the ministry that tends to be found among this segment of our movement is at least partially responsible for this.

Another thing that must be taken into account is the fact that today's young ministers don't have the same fascination with licenses and fellowship cards that their fathers did.

I know plenty of young preachers that just don't care to be licensed. They don't see that much benefit.

All that having been said, the shrinking number of young preachers is quickly becoming a matter of grave concern to the org.

I'm late to the conversation, so the thread has moved on. But here's my two cents...

Although I'm a UPC PK/MK and teach/preach occasionally in my local church, I don't have any plans to be licensed. In contrast to my more conservative brethren, we downplay the difference and minimize the gap between clergy and laity. I think this helps avoid the perception that your pastor is your priest (i.e. intermediary between God and saint) and should encourage every Christian to remember he/she is a minister. The flip side is that being a preacher is not viewed as the pinnacle of success, so fewer young men aspire to full-time ministry.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Tell_Sackett

I'm late to the conversation, so the thread has moved on. But here's my two cents...

Although I'm a UPC PK/MK and teach/preach occasionally in my local church, I don't have any plans to be licensed. In contrast to my more conservative brethren, we downplay the difference and minimize the gap between clergy and laity. I think this helps avoid the perception that your pastor is your priest (i.e. intermediary between God and saint) and should encourage every Christian to remember he/she is a minister. The flip side is that being a preacher is not viewed as the pinnacle of success, so fewer young men aspire to full-time ministry.

Very true.

I don't think it's a good thing that few, when realizing what the call to serve really looks like, back out -- but I do think it's a good thing that those who do come to serve the flock of God, they understand the implications.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

Actually, God has always had a 'system'. The problem is that man has never been satisfied with it - he always finds where God missed up, failed in His instructions and didn't see or understand what was actually required. Mankind has always questioned God's intent, methods, and plans.

The results have always been the same: I know at least as much as God, perhaps more. Therefore I will take matters into my own hands, alter His instructions (verbal and written) to fit my reality by creating improvements (adding to and diminish from) His word so that God's deficiencies can be corrected.

From the Garden of Eden until today, man has express his dissatisfaction with God's plan and instructions for a righteous life - that was the failure of the last covenant God made with man - it was not the covenant its self that was flawed, it is man's unwillingness to obey God!

All of the instructions in righteousness, all of the religious laws, standards, rules and regulations stem from that same broken nature of man, i.e. the unwillingness to love God (our creator and master), and our refusal to love our brothers and sisters as fellow creations and equal before the same God. Remember, it is upon these two commandments that everything else hangs! But, even with the claim of having God's own Spirit, we still refuse to accept and submit to these two foundational requirements.

Even within the body of Christ, we strive to be 'better' than our brothers and sisters. To prove to them, ourselves, and to God that we are more holy (consecrated, worthy of God love and blessings), spiritual (higher in calling, gifting, ministry, and relationship with God) than those around us. And, like Diotrephes, we have those who demand preeminence within the local assemblies, and if they do not get the position of choice, they will go else where - even to starting their own congregation(s) and calling themselves a 'man of God'.

No, my friends, we do not come together as a body and serve one another and thereby serve God, we are more like cancer cells, fighting not only against one another and our own selves (to our own self destruction), but even against God Himself. What I find so sad, is that we (yes, even I) take pride in these acts of rebellion against God - and we then go to such great lengths to justify ourselves.

Is it not time for a change of heart?

Great post.
Sadly some events of the last 48 hours, in my world, have proven some of this true.
Some of us seem to always need an "enemy" to fight.
If we can't find the devil, we'll find one of our brothers or sisters.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Very true.

I don't think it's a good thing that few, when realizing what the call to serve really looks like, back out -- but I do think it's a good thing that those who do come to serve the flock of God, they understand the implications.

Yes, as James Kilgore preached, "Are you here for the glory road or the sackcloth and ashes?" It's a huge difference.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, as James Kilgore preached, "Are you here for the glory road or the sackcloth and ashes?" It's a huge difference.