1-DeuteronomyCh8, is definitely being way toohostile.
2-Jeffery, DAII and others are definitely being way too sarcastic.
I've only posted on this site a handful of times and I just came back today to get some news on BOTT. But everytime I visit, I see the same scenario. One group of posters "poke the stick" at others over and over, and there's always a good amount of sarcasm and "high-fives" between those of similar beliefs. Then someone gets upset (DeuteronomyCh8) and starts to rant and gets ugly. (Sorry, DeuteronomyCh8, but it's obvious) The only problem I have with this is when everyone (Jeffery, DAII and others) that has used sarcasm and made belittling remarks about a certain ideology, starts pointing the finger and acting appalled at the disgruntle poster (DeuteronomyCh8) who get offended and starts to rant. Neither side is right and neither side has clean hands. In reality though, I feel that it's a double whammy to then point fingers at the offended poster.
I'm sure that I will now be attacked by this post, but come on! Do you really feel that sarcasm is not offensive?? It's just ironic that some people use sarcasm and belittling comments in regards to a group of people or ideology movement, that they claim have offended and belittled so many.
Debates are great but this type of dialogue is just a huge turn-off to those who might consider frequently visiting this community.
Wow, was I that bad? Just pointing out the incredulity of the "evidence."
Okay, imperfect I am. It's the nature of an impersonal forum discussing ideas that make people emotional. Thanks for stopping in to fix it all (yes, that was sarcasm haha)
jasites, come back more often. I wish I could say that there won't be any sarcasm or poking, but we would enjoy your input. That kind of levelheadedness is needed everywhere.
Wow, was I that bad? Just pointing out the incredulity of the "evidence."
Okay, imperfect I am. It's the nature of an impersonal forum discussing ideas that make people emotional. Thanks for stopping in to fix it all (yes, that was sarcasm haha)
Sorry, I just pulled some names that came to mind.
Question: Do the ones on here that disagree with the UPC's stance on holiness have any generalized agreement on dress code. Meaning, do these individuals feel that no line should be drawn or that the line or "bar" should be lowered?
Sorry, I just pulled some names that came to mind.
Question: Do the ones on here that disagree with the UPC's stance on holiness have any generalized agreement on dress code. Meaning, do these individuals feel that no line should be drawn or that the line or "bar" should be lowered?
If I may chime in.....
No, I do not believe there is any generalized agreement on dress code. I DO believe that everyone HAS one, it is just that no two are the same. THIS then is one of the issues when dealing with one particular persons/organizations dress standard and why "we" do not agree with it or the (very) week bible used as evidence (which, to top is off, is more often then not made into a heaven or hell issue).
Let's take the UPCI out of the equasion for a minute, I would venture to say that ANY religious organization which puts more focus on identification of the members than they do infiltration of a lost world is going backwards.
Are we more interested in "REvival" or "SURvival"?
This has been my soapbox for a long time, too many churches (Apostolic and non-apostolic) have become showcases instead of distribution centers. How many messages in a given week throughout America are centered on the saints vs. the sinners?
I realize that teaching and preaching to the saints is necessary, but when the focus of our service is keeping the saints saved and not on evangelizing the world, we're out of balance.
Go thru this little exercise - count the instances in the New Testament where Jesus preached to the saved versus ministering to the lost. You'll find that when He DID preach to the saints, it was almost inevitably challenging them to go and minister to the sinners!
Sorry, I just pulled some names that came to mind.
Question: Do the ones on here that disagree with the UPC's stance on holiness have any generalized agreement on dress code. Meaning, do these individuals feel that no line should be drawn or that the line or "bar" should be lowered?
You know what my point about all of this is? A question for those that are against the UPCI and what they stand for. Renda may want to move this to it's own thread.
We have been through our share of trouble, but being guided by the Lord, He says to stay and see it through, He will bring the victory. We have seen this happen.
Now, the question - What would those opposing the UPCI have us do? Walk away from the will of God or obey His direction - "Stay where you are and see it through"? With "standards" and other trappings that some disagree with and some things we are not in total agreement, He says to stay.
I think this is a very serious question and matter. For those, adamantly, pushing against the UPCI and it's leadership, it appears to me that they are interfering in people's lives and the direction God would have them walk.
It is my opinion that we are being perfected and must be very careful to walk through and not around situations, circumstances, trials, etc., that we face. We must always go to God and find direction.
It appears to me, from observation, that some are directing and counseling others to find their own direction and make their own decisions.
I believe that part of being perfected (maturing) is going through trials, learning, growing, etc. After all, "In patience, possess ye your souls."
We always know, "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
And so, the question:
If God is telling me to stay where I am, how do I and how should I take those that oppose where I serve?
Sorry, I just pulled some names that came to mind.
Question: Do the ones on here that disagree with the UPC's stance on holiness have any generalized agreement on dress code. Meaning, do these individuals feel that no line should be drawn or that the line or "bar" should be lowered?
I think everyone here believes in modesty, but even in the ranks of the UPCI standards vary so much from church to church that it seems that even they don't have a consistent agreement. This is because many of them are just pastoral whims, and UPC Pastor A and UPC Pastor B have different degrees of whimsicality.
As for the line drawn and the bar raised or lowered, that is as much a personal conviction issue with regards to a persons relationship with Jesus. Not a dictate from a pastor. We draw the line as we from the heart grow in grace.
Does that muzzle the preacher. Nope. There is a whole bible filled with biblical principles from cover to cover to preach from. We grow as learn to apply those principles and that covers a whole lot more than wardrobe.
God didn't give us his Spirit to lead and guide us if all we needed was another book of laws. Nor did he call and raise up the ministry as a law-making body. Anyone can line up to a dress code...muslims do it everyday.
My biggest issue with "standards" is how they are used to "Draw the line, set the bar" by people, often through misuse and misinterpretation of the Word, and then used to benchmark other believers and reject them based on externals. It foments an elitist mentality and attitude of "We got it and they don't". Something I believe the Lord finds abhorrent.
In passing let me mention Deuteronomy 22, as this was discussed. It isn't a buffet table where one can just grab the verse that seems to support their position, and discount the rest.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 01-20-2010 at 03:03 PM.
I think everyone here believes in modesty, but even in the ranks of the UPCI standards vary so much from church to church that it seems that even they don't have a consistent agreement. This is because many of them are just pastoral whims, and UPC Pastor A and UPC Pastor B have different degrees of whimsicality.
As for the line drawn and the bar raised or lowered, that is as much a personal conviction issue with regards to a persons relationship with Jesus. Not a dictate from a pastor. We draw the line as we from the heart grow in grace.
Does that muzzle the preacher. Nope. There is a whole bible filled with biblical principles from cover to cover to preach from. We grow as learn to apply those principles and that covers a whole lot more than wardrobe.
God didn't give us his Spirit to lead and guide us if all we needed was another book of laws. Nor did he call and raise up the ministry as a law-making body. Anyone can line up to a dress code...muslims do it everyday.
My biggest issue with "standards" is how they are used to "Draw the line, set the bar" by people, often through misuse and misinterpretation of the Word, and then used to benchmark other believers and reject them based on externals. It foments an elitist mentality and attitude of "We got it and they don't". Something I believe the Lord finds abhorrent.
Specifically Deuteronomy 22, as this was discussed. It isn't a buffet table where one can just grab the verse that seems to support their position, and discount the rest.
Yea, I was going to stay this very thing.....lol! I wish I could have, but JA you are right on point!
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Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
I think everyone here believes in modesty, but even in the ranks of the UPCI standards vary so much from church to church that it seems that even they don't have a consistent agreement. This is because many of them are just pastoral whims, and UPC Pastor A and UPC Pastor B have different degrees of whimsicality.
That is probably true to some extent, but what I am seeing is that many are just going with their own convictions.
The women that don't have a problem with long hair or wearing a dress are dressing their personal convictions on those lines. I think MissBratt has said that as well.
One example would be that their hair is long, but they are trimming it. Simply because the scripture isn't clear enough on that. My Son-in-law sports a beard and is totally accepted. No one cares or thinks its unscriptural.
The thing is, I haven't seen some of the stances against many things, in the places that I have lived, for a very long time. I guess it's location, location, location.
(yes, that was sarcasm haha)
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