Checking In

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Perhaps this happens in some places but I NEVER heard this all the time I was growing up. We have never ever told our children and young people any such thing, including our own kids.

Maybe it's a southern thing?

I've never heard it either, and I am from the OLD school! A lot of the girls I went to high school with did not get a college education....not just the Pentecostal ones!

We were in Home Missions, so I know what it's like to sacrifice. But all of our kids went to college.....the last one is still there.

I don't think it is a southern thing anymore, Felicity. We have a lot of young people at our church, and a good portion of them are in college now.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have not fully caught up with this thread yet but I have to comment on Pastor Poster's theory that Bible Colleges are in it for the money.

I was astounded to read this. Every single UPC Bible College has struggled to stay financially solvent. There is no money being made.

Because the UPC is such a small denomination and because for so long they discouraged education or striving to excel in the workplace, there are no endowment funds worth speaking of for these colleges to use as most other denominations colleges have.

Only in the last couple of decades have OP's penetrated the job marketplace in a way to build wealth so that any meaningful sums of money could be bequeathed to a Bible College.

My son went to his first year of college at a Church of Christ One. There were only about 2000-2500 students but the campus is wonderful. Much of the assets the University has and dollars for staff, programs, etc comes from endowments not the tuition money. This small University has tens of millions of dollars sitting in an endowment fund earning millions of dollars in interest. All from alumni and friends. UPC Bible Colleges do not enjoy this financial boost.

Trust me, there are individual churches and pastors that benefit in a big way from the influx of young people from across the nation. Even though the administrators know that an unaccredited degree is worthless, they still push teens into BC.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Ok, let me offer two scenarios, apropos to young ministers going to Bible College vs. secular college, and this whole concept of "getting rich".

SCENARIO A:
John Doe feels a call to the ministry. He goes to an unaccredited Bible school for 4 years, gets a diploma in Theology, and decides that he wants to plant a church. He gets to Metropolis with his young wife and possibly young child in tow, and sets about to find a job. Since he has no degree, he will most probably have to settle for a lower paying job, most likely in manufacturing or service industry work. He may make 8-10 dollars per hour, and very possibly will have to work shift work to start. He barely makes ends meet, the support he gets from Home Missions doesn't do much to help him rent a building, he has very little time to evangelize his community due to his varied work schedule. He gets discouraged after a while, and gives up on his vision of building a church in said city.

SCENARIO B:

John Doe feels a call to the ministry and knows that he will be planting a church. He goes to secular college and receives a degree in accounting/engineering/business administration, _____________ (fill in the blank). He arrives in Metropolis, is offered a position with a good company making 56k per year, working Monday thru Friday with great benefits. He now has time to spend his evenings teaching Bible Studies, he can not only support his family, but can contribute his own money to purchase, renovate and insure a building. His church begins to grow, because he has an opportunity to invest his personal time into his ministry and in time the congregation grows to the point that he can leave his secular job and become a full-time pastor. Two years down the road, John Doe experiences some financial difficulty, due to members moving away, some may become disgruntled, etc.........but, his experience and education allow him to re-enter the secular work force on a part-time basis until things stabilize.

Now, I realize that this is not the case with every church planter, but it's happened more often than not in my experience.

And, as my good friend Newman would say, I rest my case!

Great post Michael!

Let's not forget that the church planter is pressured to give to every fundraising arm of the UPC as well.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Trust me, there are individual churches and pastors that benefit in a big way from the influx of young people from across the nation. Even though the administrators know that an unaccredited degree is worthless, they still push teens into BC.

I absolutely agree with the fact churches and pastors benefit from the influx of students that having a Bible School in their city or community creates. Definitely.

In our area the bible school was always strongly promoted on a district level but I don't think most of the pastors PUSHED their young people into it. I know mine certainly didn't.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Trust me, there are individual churches and pastors that benefit in a big way from the influx of young people from across the nation. Even though the administrators know that an unaccredited degree is worthless, they still push teens into BC.

Really? Please don't tell that to the two employers who hired me partly because I had such a degree.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Perhaps this happens in some places but I NEVER heard this all the time I was growing up. We have never ever told our children and young people any such thing, including our own kids.

Maybe it's a southern thing?

I was raised in Ohio...so it wasn't limited to the south.

Originally Posted by Just a Shepherd

I would encourage young people to seek God's will for their lives first. Then take whatever route necessary to get the type of education they need to fulfill God's will, Whether it be studying at college, learning a trade, performing an apprenticeship or starting a business.

The idea that everyone "has to go to college" is nonsense. The average pay for an architect in the US is $56,637 yr. The average pay for a level III welder is $52,820. There are plenty of ways to make a good living without spending $35,000 to get a degree.

I recently retired after many, many years as a Skilled Trades Welder (whatever level that is I know not), and the only time I recall earning anything less than $50,000 a year was almost 30 years ago. The last year at work (2006) my gross earnings exceeded $120,000. I am left to wonder what architects gross per year if a "lowly level III welder" (such as I was) only makes such insignificant income. And, guess what? I never had more than a lowly GED!!!

I have mixed feelings about Bible Colleges.
If a young man feels called to the ministry Bible College is a great decision if they can do it without loading up on the student loans.
Bible College opened doors for me personally and the training I received still impacts my life. I am a full time pastor who has in the past been bi-vocational, I know what it is like to work and Pastor.
I have taken two churches that averaged 25 or less when I became their pastor, but I am not in it for the money, I believe in the call of God. When I took my current church there was not a lineup to take it, now I get inquiries. Bible College training prepared me for what I do. I am a believer in Bible College. I knew it wasn't accredited when I went there, but I went there because I felt a call for ministry.
On the flip side I do not think a female should go to Bible College unless it is for only one year, or an extraordinary circumstance.
Pastor Poster - I started University a month before I turned 45 and with my puny Bible College background I am getting better marks than just about everyone in the class.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

I recently retired after many, many years as a Skilled Trades Welder (whatever level that is I know not), and the only time I recall earning anything less than $50,000 a year was almost 30 years ago. The last year at work (2006) my gross earnings exceeded $120,000. I am left to wonder what architects gross per year if a "lowly level III welder" (such as I was) only makes such insignificant income. And, guess what? I never had more than a lowly GED!!!

PapaDon,

Obviously there are success stories outside of a college education. However I note that you started almost 30 years ago. The stats for folks starting back then making a good future for themselves without a college education are much better than the situation now.

There are alternatives to college where a person can earn a skill that pays well like welding, being a mechanic, A/C repair, electrican, plumber ,etc. I think everyone recognizes that.

I would hope though that you would recognize the benefit of a college education and that the statistics show overall that folks like you are the exception not the rule.

It can be demonstrated that folks with a bachelors degree will earn significantly more annually than those without on average.

I worked as a finance manger for many years and looked at thousands of credit applications. Time after time I would see good hard workers without a college degree who had worked themselves up in a company and were making a decent wage. However I would see kids straight out of college with a bachelors degree going to work for the same or like companies and starting out and the same income these other guys took ten years to get to.

Not to mention the income ceiling employees find at most companies if you do not hve a degree. You cannot even apply for many postions without a bachelors degree.

[rrford]

A Master's Degree in faith is only earned in the school of life.

Not to be simplistic, obtuse, or overly idelaistic, but one cannot rule out the Faith Factor in those who are involved in actively pursuing the will of God for their lives.

Fatih will compensate when other things cannot. (And no, that is not an excuse for being lazy, undisciplined, and uneducated.)