New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance

[SDG]

I believe any CLC alumnus will tell you that Segraves believes we are justified at the point of faith/repentance .... Sabellius can attest to this.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I believe any CLC alumnus will tell you that Segraves believes we are justified at the point of faith/repentance .... Sabellius can attest to this.

Indeed. That is why I have further questions...

In what way is there a remission - baptism "connection"? Is the connection primarily a symbolic one?

If not, then how is it that one is justified with unforgiven sins??

For me the question of justification is necessaily pertinent to how we view Acts 2:38.

I understand DS also did not support the change that was made to the "repentance and conversion" line a few years ago.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Indeed. That is why I have further questions...

In what way is there a remission - baptism "connection"? Is the connection primarily a symbolic one?

If not, then how is it that one is justified with unforgiven sins??

For me the question of justification is necessaily pertinent to how we view Acts 2:38.

Absolutely.

[SDG]

Bumperooski

[mizpeh]

I want to offer a side note in response to the title of this thread "New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance". This 'new' doctrine is not so new but can be found in the early post apostolic church. So don't let Dan fool you into thinking that what I believe is a brand new understanding or that it even is kin to the RCC teaching of baptismal regeneration, it's not.

Blessed are they who,placing their trust in the cross, have gone down into the water......We indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement. However, we come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [if God] and the trust in Jesus in our spirit. Barnabas

I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is no other repentance than that which takes place, when we descended into the water and received remission of our former sins. Hermas

This washing of repentance and knowledge of God has been ordained on account of the transgression of God's people, as Isaiah cries. Accordingly, we have believed and testify that the very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented. And this is the water of life....For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses only the flesh and body? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy, and from hatred. Justin Martyr

These things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also could be a sign of men being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and bath of regeneration---as many as come to the truth and are born again. Theophilus

[Scripture]says, "And he dipped himself seven times in the Jordan." It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized. Rather, this was a symbol for us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, just as the Lord has declared: " Unless a man is born again through water and the Spirit, he will not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Irenaeus

Being baptized, we are illuminated. Illuminated, we become sons....This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. Washing, by which we cleanse away our sins. Grace, by which the penalites accruing to transgressions are remitted. Illuminations, by which that holy light of salvation is beheld, that is by which we see God clearly. Clement of Alexandria.

This is a small sampling of what the early church fathers had to say about baptism and remission of sin. I will try to post some more later. I'm not posting these because I agree with what the writers are saying in totality but because I want to show that remission/forgiveness of sins in the waters of baptism is not a NEW DOCTRINE but is as old as the early church. Dan is the one being DISHONEST in saying that teaching sins are washed away/remitted/forgiven when we are baptised is a NEW DOCTRINE.

All quotes come from A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs.

[mizpeh]

Dan, I'll be back later today to give scriptural proof for my second premise.

[mizpeh]

More quotes from the Early Church Fathers.

And he who has just been regenerated---as the name necessarily indicates---and has been enlightened, is immediately delivered from the darkness, and instantly receives the light....Thus also, we who are bap;tized, having wiped off the sins that obscure the light of the Divine Spirit, have the eye of the spirit free, unimpeded, and full of light,by which alone we contemplate the Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above. Clement of Alexandria

In the same way therefore, we also repent of our sins, renounce our iniquities, and are purified by baptism. Thereby, we speed back to the eternal light as children of the Father. Clement of Alexandria

Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eterhanl life...We, like little fishes, after the example of our ichthus, Jesus Christ, are born in water. Tertullian

[The waters] that used to remedy bodily defects, nw heal the spirit. The waters that used to bring temporal health, now renew eternal health. The waters that set free but once in the year, now daily save people en masse, death being done away through washing of sins. Once the guilt is removed, the penalty is, of course, removed as well...It is not that in the waters we obtain the Holy Spirit. Rather, in the water, under the angel, we are cleansed and prepared for the Holy Spirit...Thus, too, does the angel, the witness of baptism, "make the paths straight" for the Holy Spirit. For He is about to come upon us. The "paths are made straight" by the washing away of sins, which faith obtains, sealed in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Tertullian

Matthew alone adds the words, "to repentance," teaching us that the benefit of baptism is connected with the INTENTION of the baptized person. To him who repents, it is saving. However, to him who comes to it without repentance, it will produce greater condemnation. Origen

He who has been sanctified, his sins being put away in baptism, and has been spiritually reformed into a new man, has become fitted for receiving the Holy Spirit. Cyprian

In the baptism of water, there is received the remission of sins. Cyprian

If he was not baptized, neither are any of us baptized. Yet, if there is no baptism, neither will there be any remission of sins. Rather, every man will die in his own sins Disputation of Archelaus and Manes

Black I was in sins, but I am comely. For I have repented and converted. I have put away that hateful hue in baptism. For He, the Savior of all creatures, has washed me in His innocent blood. Canticle of Mar.

He who out of contempt will not be baptized will be condemned as an unbeliever. He will be reproached as an unbeliever. He will be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, "Unless a man is baptized of water and of the Spirit, he will by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven". And again," He who believes and is baptized will be saed. But he who does not believe will be condemned." However, he may say, "When I am dying, I will be baptized, lest I should afterwards sin and defile my baptism." Such a person is ignorant of God, and he forgets his own mortal nature. For it is written, "Do not delay to turn unto the Lord, for you do not know what the next day will bring forth. Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c. 390)

All quotes taken from A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs.

[mizpeh]

1) Sins are remitted by the applied blood of Jesus Christ.

2) Remission of sins takes place at water baptism in Jesus name.

3) Therefore, the blood of Christ is applied at water baptism.

Dan, I gave you scriptural reasons for premise #1 in post #183.

Here is why I believe premise #2 Remission of sins takes place at water baptism in Jesus name:

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I believe the "eis"/for is with a view toward remission of sin when taking into account the totality of scripture. Luke wrote repentance and remission of sins should be preached in Jesus name. Not repentance is remission of sins, nor repentance for the remission of sins, but repentance and remission. Two distinctly different things.

When we go to the very first apostolic message preached to unbelievers, we find in Acts 2:38 that baptism is directly linked to remission of sins. I know you want to read it like this and probably do read it with this incorrect understanding: Repent for the remission of sins (how would you define "eis" if this verse is read this way? LOL) and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I'd like to point you to the DS article Prax posted on this thread http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=176.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

This verse links the necessity of the name of Christ with receiving remission of sins for those who believe. ( and I don't think the KJV translators were baptismal regenerationists(or Roman Catholics). So there was no conspiracy amongst the KJV translators to try to introduce their soterlogical views into the scriptures when translating. I think it's significant that the only place in Acts 2:38, (Peter's response to " Men and brethren, what shall we do"), where remission of sins is connected to Jesus name is in regards to water baptism.

Acts 10: 4-6... Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Acts 10:43-48 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

What are all the things that Peter preached which were commanded of God? Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. He didn't even get to repentance when the Holy Spirit fell on the listeners. Yet immediately after they received the Holy Spirit, baptism was COMMANDED IN JESUS NAME. What had Peter said a few minutes earlier about remission of sins THROUGH the name of the Lord? Peter isn't preaching or doing anything different here than he did in Acts 2:38. The message is the same, just rearranged a little.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Hmmm, again we see baptism, washing away of sins (remission) and the name of the Lord all in one verse, all linked directly together. The command is to be baptized and wash away your sins while calling on the name of the Lord (this is not the same as authority). Notice the urgency of being baptised immediately after receiving the Holy Spirit? If Paul had received remission of sins on the Damascus road when he believed and repented, then this whole verse doesn't make sense.

It seems clear to me that baptism washes/remits sins when done in Jesus name.

And the verse that ties both premises together:

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


The Spirit applies the blood to remove the body of sins in the water of baptism to a penitant believer.

[theoldpaths]

Acts 22:16 shows a biblical definition of remission of sins or what happens at baptism if one has truly repented beforehand...

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

After the high priest got bloody at the brazen altar, he had to wash at the brazen laver afterwards. Type and shadow.

[Praxeas]

What grammatical rule do greek scholars use in order to translate this one word as remission and not forgiveness?