Well you realize "them that believe" can refer to the entire group as a whole and not to each individual believer
Does that apply to the "they shall speak with new tongues..." part as well? Or is this referring to "speaking in tongues"?
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Well you realize "them that believe" can refer to the entire group as a whole and not to each individual believer
Sure. So, if that's the case, would it mean that the group takes up serpents, if perhaps only a few individuals actually do so? And what about tongues? If just one member of the group speaks in tongues, can it be said that the group speaks in tongues? I think the answer would have to be the same for every one of the signs that follow.
(Don't know if you are one that cites this passage as proof that tongues are required of Christians. I'm pretty sure you don't require snake handling!)
But look at the poison-drinking sign. As some have pointed out, it doesn't say they shall drink poison and not be harmed. It says if they do, they will not be harmed. Still, it's pretty clearly written and explicit in its claim: if they drink poison, it will not hurt them. Not sure how that could be applied as above, with signs following "them" as a group but not necessarily each individual. If several individuals drink poison and some but not all of them survive, does that count?
That illustrates the point in bringing up this question about additions to the Bible. Even if they are well-meaning, and even if they may, to some extent, be in harmony with other scriptures, they can be dangerous. E.g., I know there are cases of deaths by snake byte, in snake handling churches (not enough faith, or sloppy technique?). I also have heard that the snake handlers sometimes also drink poison, but I don't know whether that practice has resulted in death. Even if a bogus addition, if there is such, doesn't kill someone, it could lead to false doctrine.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Sure. So, if that's the case, would it mean that the group takes up serpents, if perhaps only a few individuals actually do so? And what about tongues? If just one member of the group speaks in tongues, can it be said that the group speaks in tongues? I think the answer would have to be the same for every one of the signs that follow.
(Don't know if you are one that cites this passage as proof that tongues are required of Christians. I'm pretty sure you don't require snake handling!)
But look at the poison-drinking sign. As some have pointed out, it doesn't say they shall drink poison and not be harmed. It says if they do, they will not be harmed. Still, it's pretty clearly written and explicit in its claim: if they drink poison, it will not hurt them. Not sure how that could be applied as above, with signs following "them" as a group but not necessarily each individual. If several individuals drink poison and some but not all of them survive, does that count?
That illustrates the point in bringing up this question about additions to the Bible. Even if they are well-meaning, and even if they may, to some extent, be in harmony with other scriptures, they can be dangerous. E.g., I know there are cases of deaths by snake byte, in snake handling churches (not enough faith, or sloppy technique?). I also have heard that the snake handlers sometimes also drink poison, but I don't know whether that practice has resulted in death. Even if a bogus addition, if there is such, doesn't kill someone, it could lead to false doctrine.
It means these signs will follow the group in general, not every individual. Paul is an example.
Paul picked up a serpent by accident and did not die. NObody else in the bible had that happen. IT was not something that everyone did, but he is a Spirit filled believer. These are signs that follow that group
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
THEM that believe...can be speaking of a group in general and not everyone individually. That does not mean though the converse
"...do all speak with tongues?" So, some in the group do, but not necessarily all?
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
"...do all speak with tongues?" So, some in the group do, but not necessarily all?
I did not say that. Read what I said. I said that verse in mark is speaking of the whole group. Then I said the converse is not true just because of that.
You are making a statement and attributing it to me as if it was my opinion.
I was not making a statement about tongues. I was making a statement about the grammar of Mark 16. It does NOT say "Not all will speak with tongues"...it says "these signs shall follow them that believe". You are trying to make that mean "not everyone speaks with tongues".
When I make a statement of fact that is all I am making. I am not making a commentary on some OTHER issue.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I did not say that. Read what I said. I said that verse in mark is speaking of the whole group. Then I said the converse is not true just because of that.
You are making a statement and attributing it to me as if it was my opinion.
I was not making a statement about tongues. I was making a statement about the grammar of Mark 16. It does NOT say "Not all will speak with tongues"...it says "these signs shall follow them that believe". You are trying to make that mean "not everyone speaks with tongues".
When I make a statement of fact that is all I am making. I am not making a commentary on some OTHER issue.
If you will reread your post, it was very easy to infer that you were saying that the group has tonque talkers, but not necessarily everyone in the groups individually. Don't panic, all I did was ask the question, I didn't say that was what you meant.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
If you will reread your post, it was very easy to infer that you were saying that the group has tonque talkers, but not necessarily everyone in the groups individually. Don't panic, all I did was ask the question, I didn't say that was what you meant.
Im saying the GRAMMAR is that Mark 16:16 is speaking of the group as a whole not individuals. The converse of that is NOT true though either. You can't say "Well if this is speaking of the whole group then that means only some individuals will have this sign".
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Im saying the GRAMMAR is that Mark 16:16 is speaking of the group as a whole not individuals. The converse of that is NOT true though either. You can't say "Well if this is speaking of the whole group then that means only some individuals will have this sign".
That would mean that some might not have the sign, but all could have the sign. Right?
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
That would mean that some might not have the sign, but all could have the sign. Right?
no
It means that "these signs" will follow the group as a whole. That's all it means. You keep doing what I said we can't then asking me if that is right lol.
It means "these signs will follow the church" there is no specification as to whether or not some might not have any one particular sign.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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