One In The Greek

[Scott Pitta]

I have no idea who Bruce Reeves is and where he learned Greek. I work all weekend, but I will dig around for a better answer.

The Greek part is easy. The sticky part is theology.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by rdp

*The gender of the Greek adjectives in conjunction w. the verbs used is very instructive. Indeed, the masculine pronominal/predicative adjective used in Mark 12.29 demands a sole person—and is never used for more than one person in the GNT.

*I am hoping to write a booklet using both diachronic and synchronic analyses on this topic in the next year or so (was actually just looking up the various usages of this masculine adjective the other night). In the meantime, if interested, here’s some blog articles I have written on this subject: https://apostolicacademics.com/?s=heis&submit=Search

*At the risk of appearing self-promoting, I have also done several public debates on this very topic replete w. lexical quotes if interested (cf. Bruce Reeves debates online). God bless.

Good website Roger. I appreciate you publishing your debates responses in defense of our faith. It is very instructive.
I watched a little bit of your debate as well on YouTube.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

1 John 5:7 still comes up a lot in discussions I have had. It came up a few days ago.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I am aware of the controversy around it. I can say that it was used by my cousin many years ago to spark my curiosity about Oneness.

When the Trins use it for themselves I point out that the blood, water, and spirit AGREE in one.

But the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost ARE one.

I assume these are not 2 different Greek words for one in the verses and that the context points out the truth that to AGREE in one is different than to BE one.

I just looked at 1 John 5.8, and interestingly, it does not contain a specific verb that means "agree." Regarding the blood, water, and Spirit, it literally says that "the three are in (or, into) the one," "one" being neuter. I guess that's an idiom that means "agreement."

Regarding v. 7, it says that the Father, Word, and Spirit are "hen," the neuter form of the Greek one. You are saying that all three refer to one person, but again, I think you'll need to have a good answer for why "one" is neuter and not the masculine "heis."

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I just looked at 1 John 5.8, and interestingly, it does not contain a specific verb that means "agree." Regarding the blood, water, and Spirit, it literally says that "the three are in (or, into) the one," "one" being neuter. I guess that's an idiom that means "agreement."

Regarding v. 7, it says that the Father, Word, and Spirit are "hen," the neuter form of the Greek one. You are saying that all three refer to one person, but again, I think you'll need to have a good answer for why "one" is neuter and not the masculine "heis."

So if one in verse 7 does not actually mean one as in an absolute way, what does it mean the Father, Word, and Spirit are one?

Do we surrender the verse to the Trins?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So if one in verse 7 does not actually mean one as in an absolute way, what does it mean the Father, Word, and Spirit are one?

Do we surrender the verse to the Trins?

It means ONE.

Again, this isn't rocket science. The ancients didn't believe God as a plurality. If they did they would of been the same as their pagan counterparts. Throughout the entire Hebrew Bible ONE God was to be SHEMA! They were to hear that God was literally ONE, and besides Him there was no other. Therefore the language in the Greek must always reflect the same as was believed by the ancient Hebrew.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It means ONE.

Again, this isn't rocket science. The ancients didn't believe God as a plurality. If they did they would of been the same as their pagan counterparts. Throughout the entire Hebrew Bible ONE God was to be SHEMA! They were to hear that God was literally ONE, and besides Him there was no other. Therefore the language in the Greek must always reflect the same as was believed by the ancient Hebrew.

Well sure. That is the way I approach it. The problem is when the many people I have discussed/debated this with begin their very complicated (to those of us who dont speak it) teaching of how ONE does not mean ONE as an absolute.

Thats why I am asking for help. To me and you, what you said in this post makes perfect sense. But when the crowd of listeners hear a guy saying I am totally wrong because I dont know the Greek therefore they are teaching the truth and I a lie they tend to believe the "educated" or scholarly person.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well sure. That is the way I approach it. The problem is when the many people I have discussed/debated this with begin their very complicated (to those of us who dont speak it) teaching of how ONE does not mean ONE as an absolute.

Thats why I am asking for help. To me and you, what you said in this post makes perfect sense. But when the crowd of listeners hear a guy saying I am totally wrong because I dont know the Greek therefore they are teaching the truth and I a lie they tend to believe the "educated" or scholarly person.

Michael, the person who tells you that you don't know Greek doesn't know Greek themselves. Basically they learned their Greek in some Pentecostal hall of higher learning. Where they were taught by some minister who had a basic Christian understanding of Greek. Christian understanding. Not an understanding of how Greek was employed by the Alexandrian Judeans, and also the Romans of the empire during the first century A.D. The Greek ἕν has other meanings in how its used in a sentence. Yet, plurality, or unity isn't one of them. The ancient Greeks who used koine "vulgar Greek" would of thought it foreign to use ἕν as to denote plurality.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Michael, the person who tells you that you don't know Greek doesn't know Greek themselves. Basically they learned their Greek in some Pentecostal hall of higher learning. Where they were taught by some minister who had a basic Christian understanding of Greek. Christian understanding. Not an understanding of how Greek was employed by the Alexandrian Judeans, and also the Romans of the empire during the first century A.D. The Greek ἕν has other meanings in how its used in a sentence. Yet, plurality, or unity isn't one of them. The ancient Greeks who used koine "vulgar Greek" would of thought it foreign to use ἕν as to denote plurality.

So what about hen/heis controversy?

Is it irrelevant?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So what about hen/heis controversy?

Is it irrelevant?

Pretty much, and I have seen it debated over and over, where eyes just roll.
Look, we are English speakers, and we read English. Are birth language is English. One is one, I and the father are the same is actually what Jesus is saying to His audience. In Spanish, Yo y el Padre uno somos. Jesus and the father are the same. In French, Moi et le Père nous sommes un. All the way to modern Greek ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν. The father and I we are one. We are the same, the same being. It has more to do with the sentence, then it does with just a word. Literally, Jesus is telling His audience that He and His father are the same person. I know I know that sounds a bit far out, but it is what is being said. In Matthew 28:18 ἐξουσία, meaning authority is what Jesus was given through His death, burial and resurrection. Not by some other deity, but through His works. But I would like to point out that no verse stands by itself, but is reinforced by all other verses which Trinitarianism falls short to prove with Bible alone. Matthew 28:18 is a home run, because if there were two other separate persons other than Jesus, then they lose all authority. Namely the father. So, heis/hen debate can be hashed out by those who are true scholars. But as far as MeMaw and Aunt Bitty Joe, who speak common English, ONE means just that, ONE.

[Michael The Disciple]

It has more to do with the sentence, then it does with just a word.

Context.

But I would like to point out that no verse stands by itself, but is reinforced by all other verses which Trinitarianism falls short to prove with Bible alone.

And this has been the strength of Oneness doctrine. Rightly dividing the word of truth.