Matthew 18:19

[Lanny60]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



Beloved, you would do well to read the full chapter to arrive at the most
appropriate (and righteous) conclusion.

Under the Law, Jesus told the witness who was without sin to cast the first
stone. That means that only the "righteous" could stone a "sinner". And
there were no takers. Why? Because if it was found that an unrighteous
person cast a stone in judgment, that person was subject to the very same
punishment (stoning)!

In the same vein, God promises to hear two persons agreeing to a petition
if they would pray, "...according to His will...". Once more, it requires two
or more righteous men to pray.

Brother Villa

Brother Villa, I did read it in context, and that is why I brought this up. It's being taken out of context and I wanted to see if others were realizing this, too. (I didn't say I didn't understand it, I said I would like to hear people's thoughts on the Scripture.)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Lanny60

Well, in context it the topic is forgiving.

The problem is that Scriptures are pulled out of the Bible and used in ways that they were not meant; out of context. In so doing, people are hurt, they question their faith, and wonder why the prayers aren't answered. I can't tell you how many times the congregation was called up front and told to join hands with someone to agree together for their answers, quoting this Scripture, but without it having anything whatsoever to do with forgiving. More "name it and claim it" type thing.

God doesn't need people to twist His Word to make it sound better than what it is.

This kind of thing lowers people's trust in the ministry.

Well, the word "ask anything" stands out to me.

Kinda reminds me of "leave thy gift at the altar", or "that your prayers be not hindered".

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Lanny60

Brother Villa, I did read it in context, and that is why I brought this up. It's being taken out of context and I wanted to see if others were realizing this, too. (I didn't say I didn't understand it, I said I would like to hear people's thoughts on the Scripture.)

I see: my bad.
The first sentence on MY post should have read: "Beloved, THEY would do well
to read the full chapter..."

Brother Villa

[Lanny60]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



I see: my bad.
The first sentence on MY post should have read: "Beloved, THEY would do well
to read the full chapter..."

Brother Villa

LOL. No, you aren't bad. You were trying to help. I probably didn't make it clear. I always appreciate reading your posts and hearing your input on topics. Happy New Year.

[Lanny60]

Originally Posted by Sean

Well, the word "ask anything" stands out to me.

Kinda reminds me of "leave thy gift at the altar", or "that your prayers be not hindered".

I understand what you are saying, Sean. Like I said, I looked at it like that for over 30 years. It just hit me a day or two ago that it wasn't a general promise to us that we can have anything if someone else agrees with our request. It is sandwiched between verses talking about forgiveness. I don't think we would be rightly dividing the Word if we pulled those verses out and applied them to all our prayer requests. In fact, I will say this carefully...just experience over the years tells me that agreeing with others won't make our requests be granted. I was on the prayer chain for 20 years and there were prayers all the time that were not answered (with a yes).

Another thought, "that your prayers be not hindered" doesn't mean that he will grant everything we ask of Him.

I don't know, guys. Like I said, it really shakes me up when something I've been taught like this comes into question. I must be too trusting to have taken a minister's word on so many things without really digging into everything on my own. I have always studied, but some of these often repeated verses I never questioned.

[Amanah]

Brother, it's like a tradition of man that is handed down from one to the next, sometimes we need to dig a little and look into what we are taught like the bereans.

Originally Posted by Lanny60

I understand what you are saying, Sean. Like I said, I looked at it like that for over 30 years. It just hit me a day or two ago that it wasn't a general promise to us that we can have anything if someone else agrees with our request. It is sandwiched between verses talking about forgiveness. I don't think we would be rightly dividing the Word if we pulled those verses out and applied them to all our prayer requests. In fact, I will say this carefully...just experience over the years tells me that agreeing with others won't make our requests be granted. I was on the prayer chain for 20 years and there were prayers all the time that were not answered (with a yes).

Another thought, "that your prayers be not hindered" doesn't mean that he will grant everything we ask of Him.

I don't know, guys. Like I said, it really shakes me up when something I've been taught like this comes into question. I must be too trusting to have taken a minister's word on so many things without really digging into everything on my own. I have always studied, but some of these often repeated verses I never questioned.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lanny60

I understand what you are saying, Sean. Like I said, I looked at it like that for over 30 years. It just hit me a day or two ago that it wasn't a general promise to us that we can have anything if someone else agrees with our request. It is sandwiched between verses talking about forgiveness. I don't think we would be rightly dividing the Word if we pulled those verses out and applied them to all our prayer requests. In fact, I will say this carefully...just experience over the years tells me that agreeing with others won't make our requests be granted. I was on the prayer chain for 20 years and there were prayers all the time that were not answered (with a yes).

Another thought, "that your prayers be not hindered" doesn't mean that he will grant everything we ask of Him.

I don't know, guys. Like I said, it really shakes me up when something I've been taught like this comes into question. I must be too trusting to have taken a minister's word on so many things without really digging into everything on my own. I have always studied, but some of these often repeated verses I never questioned.

That is a sign of growth and maturity.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

"That is a sign of growth and maturity."

Lanny60's response most certainly is a sign of growth & maturity.

Brother Villa

[Aquila]

I think a false dichotomy is evolving here. The passage reads:

Matthew 18:15-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

The passage is most definitely mentioning how the church should deal with a member who is sinning against the body. Of course, most of us know the procedure. Approach the individual privately to address the issue. If that doesn't work, take a witness or two with you and try to address the issue. If that doesn't work, bring the issue before the body. If the body itself cannot bring the individual to repentance or understanding, he is to be shunned. Then Jesus speaks of the principle of binding and loosing, which is connected to spiritual authority. The church has authority to make decrees, set standards, issue directives, establish guidelines, and even bind sin upon a rebellious individual (John 20:23). Christ then EXPANDS upon this principle of spiritual authority by repeating His point, "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them." Here Christ speaks of the authority of corporate prayer. When two or more pray concerning "anything" on earth, Christ assures them that the Father will answer. And this is because Christ is with them, for whosesoever two or more are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

While the immediate context is in reference to dealing with an offense in the church, the principle of the spiritual authority necessary to bind and loose; the spiritual authority and power to pray corporately and seek healing, solutions, or provision for the body, or any part of the body, is being highlighted.

Christ's points simplified are:

- Progressive inquiry before disciplining a sinner.
- Shunning (or excommunication) is established as a form of church discipline.
- Spiritual authority to bind and loose is affirmed.
- Spiritual authority to pray corporately concerning any matter affirmed.

It's not an either/or paradigm. It's multifaceted.

[thephnxman]

is NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think a false dichotomy is evolving here. The passage reads:

Matthew 18:15-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

The passage is most definitely mentioning how the church should deal with a member who is sinning against the body. Of course, most of us know the procedure. Approach the individual privately to address the issue. If that doesn't work, take a witness or two with you and try to address the issue. If that doesn't work, bring the issue before the body. If the body itself cannot bring the individual to repentance or understanding, he is to be shunned. Then Jesus speaks of the principle of binding and loosing, which is connected to spiritual authority. The church has authority to make decrees, set standards, issue directives, establish guidelines, and even bind sin upon a rebellious individual (John 20:23). Christ then EXPANDS upon this principle of spiritual authority by repeating His point, "Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them." Here Christ speaks of the authority of corporate prayer. When two or more pray concerning "anything" on earth, Christ assures them that the Father will answer. And this is because Christ is with them, for whosesoever two or more are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.
While the immediate context is in reference to dealing with an offense in the church, the principle of the spiritual authority necessary to bind and loose; the spiritual authority and power to pray corporately and seek healing, solutions, or provision for the body, or any part of the body, is being highlighted.
Christ's points simplified are:

- Progressive inquiry before disciplining a sinner.
- Shunning (or excommunication) is established as a form of church discipline.
- Spiritual authority to bind and loose is affirmed.
- Spiritual authority to pray corporately concerning any matter affirmed.

It's not an either/or paradigm. It's multifaceted.

Many prayers from different elements are heard from heaven and answered,
NOT because of the person(s) who prayed, but because the prayers, however
inadvertently, coincided with God's will. Prayers and intercessions have been
answered not because two or more would agree, or even if the congregation
as a whole (however large or small) would agree: it is because it was God's
will. Did the disciples not ask the Lord if THEY should pray that fire come
down from heaven? Was it the Lord's will?

I leave you with two scriptures:
Jn 15:7_"If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what
ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
1Jn 5:14-15_"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we
ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he
hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we
desired of him."

Praying according to His will is the Church's ultimate authority.

Brother Villa