2 Thess 2

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This man of sin is opposed to God, exalts himself above everything called God or that men worship, establishing himself as if he were God, and he sits in the temple (church) of God, making himself out to be as if he were God, usurping the divine prerogatives of the Spirit.

Concerning dispensational rapturism's false idea that "the man of sin will be a leader who will sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem" (which apparently is a belief shared by post-trib futurists and preterists* see note at end), I would remark that such is not what Paul is teaching.

There is no teaching in Scripture of a rebuilt physical Temple, a replacement of the Jerusalem temple whose destruction was prophesied by Christ during His Olivet Prophecy (Matthew 24). As I have already shown, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John, as well as Matthew, taught about a coming apostasy based on the teachings of Christ Himself. Yet there is no mention anywhere by either Christ or any of the apostles about rebuilding the temple that Christ said would be torn down.

Also, a supposed "Antichrist Temple" built by Antichrist could hardly be called the "temple of God", anymore than the current St Peter's Basilica in Vatican City can be called a temple of God.

Thirdly, there are two words translated as "temple" - hieros, and naos. Paul NEVER uses the term naos to refer to the physical temple in Jerusalem. He ONLY uses that term to speak of the church. Allowing Paul to interpret himself, it becomes obvious that "temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians ch 2 is the church, not some physical building in Jerusalem.

Each of these three reasons are sufficient by themselves to debunk any belief of the apostles in a future rebuilt temple occupied by Antichrist. Together, they not only shut the door on the idea, they lock it and throw away the key.

*Note: Many Preterists, as far as I know, believe like dispensationalists and post-trib futurists that the man of sin would occupy the physical temple. They see it as future to the apostle's writings, and fulfilled during the events of Jerusalem's siege and destruction in AD 70. I'll let them explain how, as honestly I haven't a clue, other than that's what I have been told by preterists. Not all preterists believe this, however, according to my understanding.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thess 2:2-3

Paul calls their attention to the day of Christ. What is the day of Christ? He had just showed them a few verses before this in chapter 1.

2 Thess 1:7-10

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So the day of Christ is when he comes to gather the Church and wreck judgment on the wicked.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Deceivers were teaching the day of Christ was at hand. In other words it was imminent. Paul describes several things that must happen before the day of Christ. First a falling away must occur. This will be more than just the normal backslidings of Churches. There will be a massive falling away among believers. Then the man of sin will be revealed.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul is obviously getting his teaching from Jesus. In the gospel of Mark Jesus is saying these same things and points us where to find who the man of sin is.

Mark 13:14

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

So we will find the man of sin in the prophet Daniel. But where? And dont forget the phrase by Jesus "standing where it ought not".

Paul said he will exalt HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD and all that is worshipped.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

So in Daniels writings we find such a man. A warrior king who lives at the same time as the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead. He will do exactly what Paul says the man of sin will do.

In the same context I think we can find the temple of God Paul and Jesus and Daniel refer to.

Jesus said the abomination of desolation will be "standing where it ought not". Again in Daniel we find such a thing in the same context of the man of sin who exalts himself above every god.

Dan 11:41-45

41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Note verse 45. This blaspheming king sets up his palace/temple in the glorious holy mountain. This speaks of Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:16

O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain:

He will set up an abominable temple for HIMSELF. In doing this he is showing that HE.......IS GOD! The temple of God Paul refers to IS THIS PALACE in Jerusalem he builds for himself showing himself he is God.

Jesus said in Mark the abomination of desolation will be STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

In Jerusalem. Part 1

Excellent post

[Esaias]

More on the apostasy:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
(2 Timothy 3:1-9)

Paul speaks of the general character of a certain class of people that were coming. It is supposed by many that these people are unsaved heathens, but notice what it says: "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof". These are religious pretenders. They are said to be "reprobate concerning the faith", meaning they are rejected false converts. These people are "lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God" which parallels what Paul said about the apostasy in 2 Thessalonians, that they had pleasure in unrighteousness rather than receiving a love of the truth. He here also says they withstand the truth as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses.

Jannes and Jambres were the names of two of the Egyptian wise men ("magicians") during the Exodus account, according to Jewish folklore. Paul, being a Pharisee trained by rabbi Gemaliel, would have been familiar with Jewish folklore and tradition. The names of Jannes and Jambres are attested to in the Targum of Jonathan, first book of the Maccabees, the writings of Pliny, the Testament of Abraham, and some other early pre-Christian Jewish writings, as well as the writings of gentiles (like Pliny) who reported on the beliefs of the Jews. According to Jewish legends circulating at the time, Jannes and Jambres were Egyptian magicians who stood against Moses, using demonic arts to imitate some of the miracles which Moses did before Pharaoh. Eventually, they conceded defeat (see Ex. 8:19), and (according to the legends) became proselytes and accompanied the Israelites out of Egypt into the wilderness.

The Jewish legends continue the story, that in the wilderness they opposed Moses, were involved in inciting the people to worship the golden calf, among other things, and were eventually destroyed. The legends also refer to them as "sons of Balaam", possibly suggesting not so much they were biological sons but students of the well known prophet-for-hire, or that they followed in his footsteps as religious hirelings.

Paul refers to the legend as an illustration of the point he is making. He is not speaking of unbelievers who oppose the gospel, but converts who betray themselves as false converts who had by false pretenses gotten into the church. Much like the case of Simon the Samaritan, who ostensibly converted but was discovered to still have been in the bond of iniquity.

This ties in with what Paul was saying in 2 Thessalonians, about the man of sin being a Judas-elder in the church, and with Peter's prophetic warning about false teachers arising and leading people astray. Jannes and Jambres supposedly converted from their heathenism, but it turns out their conversions were spurious. For a time they troubled the church in the wilderness, opposing Moses (representing the Law of God), just as the soon coming false teachers would show up in the church, opposing the true faith once delivered to the saints.

So then these "Jannes and Jambres" types are people in the church, pretending to be converted, but introducing paganisms and trying to lead people away from the original apostolic faith and practice. And history shows Paul's words came to pass exactly as he said.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, ...
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. We beseech you not to be disturbed as though the coming of the Lord and our final gathering together with Him was imminent and upon us.

Now, let's look at the question as to WHY some of the brethren were concerned that the day of Christ was upon them (imminent).

Previously, Paul had written to them and said thus:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

Now, some people today suppose that Paul's use of the word "we" indicates that he thought he and others then alive would be alive at the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the saints. This would imply the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints unto Him might be right around the corner, they suppose. Apparently, some in Thessalonika made the same mistake!

So Paul corrects them, and tells them not to be deceived on this matter, especially not to think that he Paul was teaching an imminent soon coming of the Lord. He lays out that certain things must take place first.

And this also shows that Paul was not saying he and some others would live to see the coming of the Lord in his and their lifetime. We is first person plural, and means "me plus others". If the speaker is excluded, then there is no "we", there is only "you" or "they". And there is absolutely no evidence that Paul lived to see the destruction of Jerusalem. The testimony of early Christian tradition is pretty much united in affirming Paul died as a martyr during Nero's reign. Now, if Paul indeed died before AD 70, then AD 70 was not the coming of the Lord he speaks of in either of his epistles. Either that, or Paul was deceived about "we" remaining to the Lord's coming. The fact is, Paul didn't make it to the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore (if the destruction of Jerusalem was the coming of the Lord he speaks of in these epistles) there was no "we who remain".

So no matter how it is sliced, no matter how one understands the coming of the Lord in the Thessalonian epistles, there was no "we" that made it to that event. Which proves that his use of the term "we" is a GENERAL term, meaning "those of us - the Christian church - who are alive and remain". He was not saying "we - I, Paul and some others now currently living - will remain to the coming of the Lord therefore it is not far off at all but will happen in our lifetime."

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 2

When Jesus said this:

Mark 13:14

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Jesus means for us to understand the meaning by the writing of Daniel. In Dans writings and the context of end time things that which is STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT seems to be the Palace/Temple the wicked king builds unto himself in the glorious land of Israel and the holy mountain of God even Jerusalem.

Should there be a Palace/Temple built in Jerusalem in honor of this blaspheming king who sets himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped?

Of course not. So this "temple of God" he builds to show himself that HE IS GOD.....is standing where it ought not.

Now let us observe the CONTEXT of these events in Daniel by reading the verses that immediately follow this man of sin placing his palace/temple in Jerusalem.

Dan 12:1-2

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is not the context of this evil king/man of sin EXACTLY the context of the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead?

WHY YES IT IS!

So when Paul says this:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We can see as Jesus taught by turning to the prophet Daniel and establishing the end time context what he (Jesus) meant by STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

The idea that this temple is THE CHURCH is far from the context in which Daniel, Jesus, and Paul, are writing and teaching.

Part 2....continued

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 3

2 Thess 2:5

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul reminds them he had taught them these things before.

Verse 6

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

On the basis of what he just told them he says now they know what is with holding the revelation of Jesus Christ. Its key to understand verse 6 is referring to the revelation/coming of Jesus.....not the man of sin.

The whole issue up to that point was about the revelation of Jesus Christ. Remember chapter 1:7?

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul has now reminded them how he taught them what had to happen before the revelation/coming of Jesus would occur. It was that there must come a falling away first and the man of sin first be revealed.

THAT was and is what is witholding the second coming. Those two things. After they happen the revelation of Jesus Christ will be imminent.

So the reason people dont understand what is restraining or holding back the revelation of Jesus coming is because they erroneously believe verse 6 to be referring to the man of sin rather than Pauls intent, that it is the revelation of JESUS that is being restrained because those two things must first occur.

[Michael The Disciple]

Part 4

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

10-12



10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul says if we love not the truth we will perish. We will receive a strong delusion. Let us love the truth and search it out as fine gold. It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that in this context "loving the truth" is a mere reference to Acts 2:8 as most Apostolics seem to believe.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So when Jesus said this:

Mark 13:14

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Jesus means for us to understand the meaning by the writing of Daniel. In Dans writings and the context of end time things that which is STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT seems to be the Palace/Temple the wicked king builds unto himself in the glorious land of Israel and the holy mountain of God even Jerusalem.

Should there be a Palace/Temple built in Jerusalem in honor of this blaspheming king who sets himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped?

Of course not. So this "temple of God" he builds to show himself that HE IS GOD.....is standing where it ought not.

Now let us observe the CONTEXT of these events in Daniel by reading the verses that immediately follow this man of sin placing his palace/temple in Jerusalem.

Dan 12:1-2

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is not the context of this evil king/man of sin EXACTLY the context of the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead?

WHY YES IT IS!

So when Paul says this:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

We can see as Jesus taught by turning to the prophet Daniel and establishing the end time context what he (Jesus) meant by STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT.

The idea that this temple is THE CHURCH is far from the context in which Daniel, Jesus, and Paul, are writing and teaching.

Part 2....continued

Paul said the man of sin sits in the temple of God. Not in a temple dedicated to himself. There are only two possibilities for the "temple of God": either the physical temple in Jerusalem (which no longer exists), or the church. Paul always referred to the temple in Jerusalem as the "hieros", and never as the "naos". Paul always refers to the church as the "naos" and never as the "hieros". In our text, Paul says the man sits in the "naos of God". The only conclusion that makes sense is that the "naos of God" means the church, here as it does EVERYWHERE ELSE IN PAUL'S WRITINGS.

As for the abomination that maketh desolate:

Here is Matthew's record of the Lord's prophecy:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Matthew 24:15-21)

Here is Luke's record of the Lord's prophecy:

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(Luke 21:20-23)

Matthew said "when you see the adomination that makes desolate then let them which are in Judea flee into the mountains" etc. Luke said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains." Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, it is clear the abomination that maketh desolate had to do with the Roman armies coming against Jerusalem.

[Sean]

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Ummmm.

It is a guy(fella).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Ummmm.

It is a guy(fella).

Agreed.