Communion - Literal vs Spiritual

Originally Posted by The Dean

Literal.













As oft as ye DO this... Key word: DO!

focusing on your key word (I am a literalist BTW) DO... DO What? What were they doing and what is the THIS they were doing? Is this statement a prescription for how often we are to partake?

[Esther]

I believe it is literal just as I believe foot washing is literal.

Jesus did all of this on the same night literally, not spiritually.

Does it have a spiritual meaning? Yes, it does.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Communion, as we practice it today, wasn't remotely like it was done in the NT. In the NT it was a Passover meal which had been observed for centuries before. Only when the early church veered off and left its Jewish roots, was it able to reduce the Passover to a swig of juice and a cracker. .

This is true. I have some Christian friends who celebrate the passover meal every year. They sent me a DVD of a Messianic Jew explaining the passover, its symbolism and how it's done. A lot of the symbolism actually points to Christ's crucifixion. I would like to start celebrating passover eventually, when I learn how to do it right. Of course, it won't become a replacement for communion at church, but I think celebrating passover would be a good experience for the family.

[Steve Epley]

Jesus commanded to do, Paul commanded to do, these folks say don't do.
There are three ordinances in the church:
1. baptism
2. the Lord's supper
3. feetwashing

They deny two of these thus to fellowship them is impossible.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by samp

This is true. I have some Christian friends who celebrate the passover meal every year. They sent me a DVD of a Messianic Jew explaining the passover, its symbolism and how it's done. A lot of the symbolism actually points to Christ's crucifixion. I would like to start celebrating passover eventually, when I learn how to do it right. Of course, it won't become a replacement for communion at church, but I think celebrating passover would be a good experience for the family.

If we're going to say that following the biblical example is imperative, then we're going to have to ditch the juice and cracker stuff and go back to a Passover meal. The juice and cracker is absolutely NOT biblical.

If we say the that the remembrance is more importanat than biblical "imitation," then the juice and cracker is fine because we are remembering the Lord's death til He comes. At NLC, we do both. I have had Passover observances and probably will do one this Easter time as well. We also do the "juice and cracker" simply because people are so familiar with it. At this point, if I did away with the juice and cracker, it would alienate many folks who hold it in a special significance. Some things are worth fighting for and others are not.

Those who state that they cannot fellowship those who don't have juice and a cracker are still stating that they will fellowship those who do NOT follow biblical precedence in the Lord's supper.

I don't try to convince anyone to stop the juice and cracker and go to Passover meal only, but we must be very careful when we tout "getting back to the bible" as it may mean we need to change more than we think.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

If we're going to say that following the biblical example is imperative, then we're going to have to ditch the juice and cracker stuff and go back to a Passover meal. The juice and cracker is absolutely NOT biblical.

If we say the that the remembrance is more importanat than biblical "imitation," then the juice and cracker is fine because we are remembering the Lord's death til He comes. At NLC, we do both. I have had Passover observances and probably will do one this Easter time as well. We also do the "juice and cracker" simply because people are so familiar with it. At this point, if I did away with the juice and cracker, it would alienate many folks who hold it in a special significance. Some things are worth fighting for and others are not.

Those who state that they cannot fellowship those who don't have juice and a cracker are still stating that they will fellowship those who do NOT follow biblical precedence in the Lord's supper.

I don't try to convince anyone to stop the juice and cracker and go to Passover meal only, but we must be very careful when we tout "getting back to the bible" as it may mean we need to change more than we think.

What does your passover observance entail?

The one explained in the DVD, "Zola Levitt Presents The Miracle of Passover," is done in a family setting. Anything containing leaven is removed from the house - bread, cereal, cake, cookies, etc. All the old dishes are removed, and only new dishes are used for the meal. The bread that is used is matzah (which is unleavened of course), and it's in the form of a large square. The matzah is covered in stripes and holes - the stripes represent the lashes that Jesus received, and the holes represent his flesh being pierced. The matzah is symbolically broken by the father (or whomever is leading the ceremony). A prayer is read by the youngest boy that asks "why is this night different from all other nights? On all other nights we eat leavened or unleavened bread, but on this night, only unleavened, etc, etc."

There is also a symbolic act of pouring or sprinkling wine (grape juice or dealcoholized wine can be used) onto a plate, which is special because it parallels Christ's blood being shed on the cross. A female lights the candles, because it was a female who brought us the light of the world.

This is the best that I can explain the Seder celebration, because I am just beginning to learn about it myself. My movitation for observing it is not so much biblical imitation as having a family celebration that is rich in Biblical imagery. It can also search as a useful teaching tool.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by samp

What does your passover observance entail?

The one explained in the DVD, "Zola Levitt Presents The Miracle of Passover," is done in a family setting. Anything containing leaven is removed from the house - bread, cereal, cake, cookies, etc. All the old dishes are removed, and only new dishes are used for the meal. The bread that is used is matzah (which is unleavened of course), and it's in the form of a large square. The matzah is covered in stripes and holes - the stripes represent the lashes that Jesus received, and the holes represent his flesh being pierced. The matzah is symbolically broken by the father (or whomever is leading the ceremony). A prayer is read by the youngest boy that asks "why is this night different from all other nights? On all other nights we eat leavened or unleavened bread, but on this night, only unleavened, etc, etc."

There is also a symbolic act of pouring or sprinkling wine (grape juice or dealcoholized wine can be used) onto a plate, which is special because it parallels Christ's blood being shed on the cross. A female lights the candles, because it was a female who brought us the light of the world.

This is the best that I can explain the Seder celebration, because I am just beginning to learn about it myself. My movitation for observing it is not so much biblical imitation as having a family celebration that is rich in Biblical imagery. It can also search as a useful teaching tool.

I have done this both in my home when my children were smaller (they have never forgotten it) and in our church. The symbolism of the juice and cracker pales in comparison to a Passover meal. In the past, I have also used one of Zola's videos to enhance my teaching on the Passover. I may do so again. It is a powerful experience. Especially when the "bitter herbs" are partaken of and everyone's has tears to remember the bitter tears of bondage in Egypt and also sin. It is powerful teaching, indeed!

Correction, it is a series of questions that are asked, and they are asked by the youngest member present, whether a boy or a girl.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I have done this both in my home when my children were smaller (they have never forgotten it) and in our church. The symbolism of the juice and cracker pales in comparison to a Passover meal. In the past, I have also used one of Zola's videos to enhance my teaching on the Passover. I may do so again. It is a powerful experience. Especially when the "bitter herbs" are partaken of and everyone's has tears to remember the bitter tears of bondage in Egypt and also sin. It is powerful teaching, indeed!

Yes, it is. I'm glad you practice it. I can't wait to participate in my first one.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by samp

Correction, it is a series of questions that are asked, and they are asked by the youngest member present, whether a boy or a girl.

The "Four Questions" are always asked by one of the young children. From a Jewish perspective, Passover is for the children so that they will never forget what God has done in deliverance and that He will always be there for them in the future! It is, IMO, a LIVING communion celebration. Just talking about it gets me excited again because of what it means!!!