What exactly is Sufi Islam?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

"When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: `Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?... We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!'"

Neither do you. ^^ (above) is the miracle of "tongues" as outlined in your book. This is not what you do or what you experience.

The other references to tongues not only describe other tongues but describe what is said. Such as "for they heard them speaking in tongues and magnifying God" in Acts 10.

I believe the term for what you do is "glossolalia" which really pales to and is not the same as what is described to be a real unusual event (Acts 2) - one that I don't believe has ever been repeated in any of your lifetimes.

Unless you have a specific example. Otherwise you completely ostracize people until they blah blah blah for a few minutes and join your club.

Sorry dude, that's how I see it. Maybe i'm wrong but that's what it looks, smells, and sounds like.

I could give you a specific example but I don't think you would believe me. It doesn't concern me, but several others whom I know and have met, and who relate to one another specifically because of a genuine xenolalic experience.

But that's besides the point.

"Speaking in tongues AND praising God" - ie two distinct things. While it is true they were likely praising God in other languages, it is also entirely possible and indeed probable they were doing both. In most Pentecostal meetings (my experience, anyway) you will see the same thing: people speaking in tongues AND praising God. The two go hand in hand. Again, per my experience.

As for foreign languages:

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
(Acts 2:6-8)

A close examination of what is actually written shows a unique phenomenon. Each person who showed up to see what the hubbub was about heard all the disciples speaking in his, the visitor's, own language. Which technically speaking is an ontological impossibility, because a person cannot speak more than one language at a time. So not only were the disciples "speaking in tongues", but a distinct phenomenon occured whereby the visitors understood that "tongue speaking" as their own native language or dialect (that is, the language of the country in which they were from). So the guy from Rome heard all these Galilean disciples speaking Latin, whereas the guy from Parthia heard all those same disciples speaking Parthian, and so forth.

That being the case, the disciples were not simply "speaking in otherwise known foreign languages", but something entirely weird was going on in that first Pentecostal meeting. Along the lines of something that almost nobody can relate to unless they've been in a genuine Pentecostal meeting, in which inexplicable things like this tend to happen. Unfortunately, such meetings are getting rare nowadays, even among those who call themselves "Pentecostal".

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I could give you a specific example but I don't think you would believe me. It doesn't concern me, but several others whom I know and have met, and who relate to one another specifically because of a genuine xenolalic experience.

But that's besides the point.

"Speaking in tongues AND praising God" - ie two distinct things. While it is true they were likely praising God in other languages, it is also entirely possible and indeed probable they were doing both. In most Pentecostal meetings (my experience, anyway) you will see the same thing: people speaking in tongues AND praising God. The two go hand in hand. Again, per my experience.

As for foreign languages:

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
(Acts 2:6-8)

A close examination of what is actually written shows a unique phenomenon. Each person who showed up to see what the hubbub was about heard all the disciples speaking in his, the visitor's, own language. Which technically speaking is an ontological impossibility, because a person cannot speak more than one language at a time. So not only were the disciples "speaking in tongues", but a distinct phenomenon occured whereby the visitors understood that "tongue speaking" as their own native language or dialect (that is, the language of the country in which they were from). So the guy from Rome heard all these Galilean disciples speaking Latin, whereas the guy from Parthia heard all those same disciples speaking Parthian, and so forth.

That being the case, the disciples were not simply "speaking in otherwise known foreign languages", but something entirely weird was going on in that first Pentecostal meeting. Along the lines of something that almost nobody can relate to unless they've been in a genuine Pentecostal meeting, in which inexplicable things like this tend to happen. Unfortunately, such meetings are getting rare nowadays, even among those who call themselves "Pentecostal".

Is this rare (lets just say in america) because it would necessitate an individual coming to church that would not be able to understand the gospel message in English and would need to be told of the gospel in their respective language? Or do you think the Parthians, Galileans, etc could understand the native language of the disciples but needed this miracle to inspire faith?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Is this rare (lets just say in america) because it would necessitate an individual coming to church that would not be able to understand the gospel message in English and would need to be told of the gospel in their respective language? Or do you think the Parthians, Galileans, etc could understand the native language of the disciples but needed this miracle to inspire faith?

The crowd that gathered had no problem understanding Peter's sermon. Considering they were "men of Judea" ie Jews, it is likely Peter preached to them in Hebrew (Aramaic?) or maybe even in Greek (since most everyone knew Greek to begin with anyway). The tongues weren't for the purpose of preaching (we see this because the disciples were speaking in tongues before any visitors showed up so who were they "preaching" to?).

Genuine xenolalia, where a person speaks a known foreign language they haven't learned, I would say is very rare. But I do know of at least one case where it definitely happened, along with a series of other miraculous events that all worked together to bring the true Gospel to non-English speaking believers who have ever since been moving deeper into the truth. All as a direct result of a brother praying in tongues that was heard as a foreign language by others, convincing them that God wanted them to listen to what that brother had to say about the Gospel.

When I originally said "such meetings are getting rare" I meant that this type of experience as described in Acts 2 with not only the speakers but the hearers also is a type of experience, among others, that is likely only to happen in a genuinely Pentecostal meeting (where all sorts of "inexplicable" things seem to happen), and that such meetings seem to be getting more and more rare.

The kinds of meetings I was exposed to in my early walk with God blow away most meetings I've been to in the last say 15 years or so, generally speaking. I'm talking meetings where people literally could not remain standing, but HAD to bow down in worship. Meetings where you could literally see clouds and smoke and light that no video recorder could possibly record. Meetings where sinners literally ran out the doors at breakneck speeds because they were terrified of the presence of God. Meetings where 12 year old kids were prophesying things they couldn't possibly know, freaking the visitors out completely, and causing people to en masse seek the face of God without any prodding needed. Meetings where there were no sermon notes, no scheduled songs, nobody had any idea when the meeting would end, because it was just one long huge non-stop move of God. Meetings midweek that lasted until or past midnight. Meetings where real healings took place. Where your mail was read by some kid next to you that you never met before who got "overwhelmed" and starts testifying in the Spirit. Meetings where people are being baptised left and right and reporting visions and all sorts of such as they go to the water. Meetings where you can literally FEEL the awesome presence of God out on the street before you even make it to the door. And not just you, but everyone else, too, including people who suddenly balk at going in because they are scared to death because "I've never felt anything like this before, and church hasn't even started!"

THOSE kinds of meetings seem to be getting rare these days. At least from what I have seen.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The crowd that gathered had no problem understanding Peter's sermon. Considering they were "men of Judea" ie Jews, it is likely Peter preached to them in Hebrew (Aramaic?) or maybe even in Greek (since most everyone knew Greek to begin with anyway). The tongues weren't for the purpose of preaching (we see this because the disciples were speaking in tongues before any visitors showed up so who were they "preaching" to?).

Genuine xenolalia, where a person speaks a known foreign language they haven't learned, I would say is very rare. But I do know of at least one case where it definitely happened, along with a series of other miraculous events that all worked together to bring the true Gospel to non-English speaking believers who have ever since been moving deeper into the truth. All as a direct result of a brother praying in tongues that was heard as a foreign language by others, convincing them that God wanted them to listen to what that brother had to say about the Gospel.

When I originally said "such meetings are getting rare" I meant that this type of experience as described in Acts 2 with not only the speakers but the hearers also is a type of experience, among others, that is likely only to happen in a genuinely Pentecostal meeting (where all sorts of "inexplicable" things seem to happen), and that such meetings seem to be getting more and more rare.

The kinds of meetings I was exposed to in my early walk with God blow away most meetings I've been to in the last say 15 years or so, generally speaking. I'm talking meetings where people literally could not remain standing, but HAD to bow down in worship. Meetings where you could literally see clouds and smoke and light that no video recorder could possibly record. Meetings where sinners literally ran out the doors at breakneck speeds because they were terrified of the presence of God. Meetings where 12 year old kids were prophesying things they couldn't possibly know, freaking the visitors out completely, and causing people to en masse seek the face of God without any prodding needed. Meetings where there were no sermon notes, no scheduled songs, nobody had any idea when the meeting would end, because it was just one long huge non-stop move of God. Meetings midweek that lasted until or past midnight. Meetings where real healings took place. Where your mail was read by some kid next to you that you never met before who got "overwhelmed" and starts testifying in the Spirit. Meetings where people are being baptised left and right and reporting visions and all sorts of such as they go to the water. Meetings where you can literally FEEL the awesome presence of God out on the street before you even make it to the door. And not just you, but everyone else, too, including people who suddenly balk at going in because they are scared to death because "I've never felt anything like this before, and church hasn't even started!"

THOSE kinds of meetings seem to be getting rare these days. At least from what I have seen.

Interesting post. You are saying that there have been genuine events like Acts 2? Tongues wherever referenced seem to imply languages, yet modern tongues have been recorded and analyzed (by what seem to be true seekers) and exhaustive analysis indicates that they are in fact not languages. Rule, not exception.
However based on what you say the phenomenon occasionally occurs. Where? Who? If actually witnessed I am curious to hear about it firsthand. It's an interest.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Interesting post. You are saying that there have been genuine events like Acts 2? Tongues wherever referenced seem to imply languages, yet modern tongues have been recorded and analyzed (by what seem to be true seekers) and exhaustive analysis indicates that they are in fact not languages. Rule, not exception.
However based on what you say the phenomenon occasionally occurs. Where? Who? If actually witnessed I am curious to hear about it firsthand. It's an interest.

Glossalalia is communication, but unintelligible. Thus, "no man understandeth" the speaker (1 Cor 14:2). I don't know (firsthand) if there are instances where a person spoke a foreign language miraculously, but I do know of at least one case where a person speaking in tongues was HEARD in a foreign language. Or at least, the person heard himself speaking in tongues, but someone else heard that person speaking flawless Russian. And, a close reading of Acts 2 indicates that's what was going on (see my previous two posts above).

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Glossalalia is communication, but unintelligible. Thus, "no man understandeth" the speaker (1 Cor 14:2). I don't know (firsthand) if there are instances where a person spoke a foreign language miraculously, but I do know of at least one case where a person speaking in tongues was HEARD in a foreign language. Or at least, the person heard himself speaking in tongues, but someone else heard that person speaking flawless Russian. And, a close reading of Acts 2 indicates that's what was going on (see my previous two posts above).

When did this happen? It’s a serious interest of mine.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

When did this happen? It’s a serious interest of mine.

Couple years ago, at a Russian Pentecostal church. The speaker was an American who doesn't speak Russian at all. He was praying in tongues and the people heard him praying and worshipping in Russian. They thought he knew Russian but he said he had no knowledge of the language. As far as he was concerned he was just speaking in tongues. So naturally everybody was "confounded" and decided he needed to keep coming back because they figured God must be involved in putting them both together.

I know the American, and the Russians, have met them and broke bread with them, both in church and at one of the Russian's home. Most of them don't speak English, by the way. A couple of the younger brothers serve as translators.

Was the American minister speaking Russian? Or was he speaking in tongues and everyone heard him in Russian? Not sure. I do however know he remembers speaking in tongues, and they remember him speaking Russian.

They have built a very good relationship over the last couple of years, all because of this event. Having met these folks, I can say they are sincere, genuine people, all of them immigrants from Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, etc, serious about living for Jesus, and by the way generally aware that America is being communized.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I could give you a specific example but I don't think you would believe me. It doesn't concern me, but several others whom I know and have met, and who relate to one another specifically because of a genuine xenolalic experience.

But that's besides the point.

"Speaking in tongues AND praising God" - ie two distinct things. While it is true they were likely praising God in other languages, it is also entirely possible and indeed probable they were doing both. In most Pentecostal meetings (my experience, anyway) you will see the same thing: people speaking in tongues AND praising God. The two go hand in hand. Again, per my experience.

As for foreign languages:

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
(Acts 2:6-8)

A close examination of what is actually written shows a unique phenomenon. Each person who showed up to see what the hubbub was about heard all the disciples speaking in his, the visitor's, own language. Which technically speaking is an ontological impossibility, because a person cannot speak more than one language at a time. So not only were the disciples "speaking in tongues", but a distinct phenomenon occured whereby the visitors understood that "tongue speaking" as their own native language or dialect (that is, the language of the country in which they were from). So the guy from Rome heard all these Galilean disciples speaking Latin, whereas the guy from Parthia heard all those same disciples speaking Parthian, and so forth.

That being the case, the disciples were not simply "speaking in otherwise known foreign languages", but something entirely weird was going on in that first Pentecostal meeting. Along the lines of something that almost nobody can relate to unless they've been in a genuine Pentecostal meeting, in which inexplicable things like this tend to happen. Unfortunately, such meetings are getting rare nowadays, even among those who call themselves "Pentecostal".

Its like there was a reversal of the confounding of the languages that happened during the Tower of Babal....Jesus done gone and reversed the polarity.


This is an absolutely amazing thread. Im loving reading these testimonies. Man when you started describing the services ...major witness in my spirit.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Couple years ago, at a Russian Pentecostal church. The speaker was an American who doesn't speak Russian at all. He was praying in tongues and the people heard him praying and worshipping in Russian. They thought he knew Russian but he said he had no knowledge of the language. As far as he was concerned he was just speaking in tongues. So naturally everybody was "confounded" and decided he needed to keep coming back because they figured God must be involved in putting them both together.

I know the American, and the Russians, have met them and broke bread with them, both in church and at one of the Russian's home. Most of them don't speak English, by the way. A couple of the younger brothers serve as translators.

Was the American minister speaking Russian? Or was he speaking in tongues and everyone heard him in Russian? Not sure. I do however know he remembers speaking in tongues, and they remember him speaking Russian.

They have built a very good relationship over the last couple of years, all because of this event. Having met these folks, I can say they are sincere, genuine people, all of them immigrants from Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, etc, serious about living for Jesus, and by the way generally aware that America is being communized.

Amazing story. Thanks

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

"When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: `Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?... We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!'"

Neither do you. ^^ (above) is the miracle of "tongues" as outlined in your book. This is not what you do or what you experience.

The other references to tongues not only describe other tongues but describe what is said. Such as "for they heard them speaking in tongues and magnifying God" in Acts 10.

I believe the term for what you do is "glossolalia" which really pales to and is not the same as what is described to be a real unusual event (Acts 2) - one that I don't believe has ever been repeated in any of your lifetimes.

Unless you have a specific example. Otherwise you completely ostracize people until they blah blah blah for a few minutes and join your club.

Sorry dude, that's how I see it. Maybe i'm wrong but that's what it looks, smells, and sounds like.

Prove its not what I do.

Only once does the bible mention it like that. No other time. Infact

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
I Corinthians 14:2 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.14.2.NKJV