Human Effort In Salvation?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

mtd, v10 proves predestination and that human effort will be expended to ensure our predestination, not that human effort in any way decides our salvation. we are predestined based on god's foreknowledge of our freewill choices and we are called to be holy,
Ephesians 1:4

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

4 just as he chose us in Christ[a] before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.

I think the term predestined is being misapplied to the passages, to be predistined is not to say you are saved. It mearly says that it is God's will for all to be saved. "God is not willing that any be lost but that all come to repentance". The cross mearly made the way garenteed, but does not make some saved because God chose one over the other. Jesus said, "I am the way" It is God's will that all find the way, in this God predestined all to find the way. whether one does or not is up to man or the individual.

That being said, I believe the kingdom of God is in full force today as it ever will. Just as those that live in America are all called Americans not all are truly Americans for they do not give thier allegiance to America. All are under the rule of God in his kingdom yet not all are Christians (if I might use that word) for not all have given thier life to God through Christ.

[Tim Rutledge]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

I have been reading a history of theology and came across the issue of predestination versus free will and human effort. There are multiple scriptures to support each view. If we are corrupted by sin and the work of salvation is totally dependent on God, is there any human effort involved in our salvation? Is there anything we can do to ensure our salvation or is it totally in God's hands? People who believe in predestination will say there is nothing we can do and people who believe we have free will and can choose our destiny will say we can expend human effort to effect our salvation. what do you think?

My 2 cents...

Anyone can all fail the Grace of God.

No one is saved until they hear well done.

Faith without works is dead.

[thaddaeus417]

A quote from "A message from Colossians and Philemon."

The mystery is “Christ in you” namely, the promise
and reception of the indwelling Christ. While the phrase
may refer to Christ’s presence in the church corporately,
meaning “Christ in your midst,” it seems that the more
prominent thought is Christ’s presence individually, that
is, “Christ within each of you.” Believers do not receive
Christ because they are part of the corporate church, but
they are part of the corporate church because Christ
dwells in them individually.
We received Christ and experienced the new birth by
faith (Ephesians 2:8-9); therefore, we must continue to
live in Christ by faith. “The just shall live by faith”
(Romans 1:17). We put on Christ initially, becoming part
of His body by repentance, water baptism, and the baptism
of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; I Corinthians 12:13;
Galatians 3:27); therefore, we must continue to live a
repented life, bear His name, be filled with His Spirit, and
put Him on (Romans 13:14). We received Christ by
receiving His Spirit; therefore, we must continue to live
by the power of His Holy Spirit. “Received ye the Spirit by
the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so
foolish: having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect
by the flesh? . . . Walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 3:2-3;
5:16). (See also Romans 8:1-16.)

[crakjak]

The prodigal never lost his membership in his father's family, nor his father's heart. He just thought he did.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The prodigal never lost his membership in his father's family, nor his father's heart. He just thought he did.

Crakjak
So true, so many things we miss in reading scritpure because of our preconseved thoughts on each passage. It is my opinion, that each and every one that calls himself a child of God needs to step back and question whether what they have been taught by the religious leaders of our day is truth.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The prodigal never lost his membership in his father's family, nor his father's heart. He just thought he did.

He may not have lost his membership in the family but he neglected and set aside the inheritance he was to receive as well as his membership in the family. He was only able to fulfill his place in the family when he came to himself, left the life he had chosen to pursue, and decided to return to his father's house, more importantly, the embrace of his father. If he hadn't returned, there would have been no celebration, no reparation of the relationship between he and his family, no ring to put on his finger, no robe to clothe him with, no shoes to put on his feet, and no celebratory dinner. All those things were available to him, but he didn't receive those things until he humbled himself and returned to his father.

If he would have remained as a man desiring just to eat the husks the pigs ate because no man would give him food to eat, and never returned to his father, do you think he would have received those things?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

He may not have lost his membership in the family but he neglected and set aside the inheritance he was to receive as well as his membership in the family. He was only able to fulfill his place in the family when he came to himself, left the life he had chosen to pursue, and decided to return to his father's house, more importantly, the embrace of his father. If he hadn't returned, there would have been no celebration, no reparation of the relationship between he and his family, no ring to put on his finger, no robe to clothe him with, no shoes to put on his feet, and no celebratory dinner. All those things were available to him, but he didn't receive those things until he humbled himself and returned to his father.

If he would have remained as a man desiring just to eat the husks the pigs ate because no man would give him food to eat, and never returned to his father, do you think he would have received those things?

The father of the prodigal would still be waiting today, or until his son returned. He never, ever gives up!! Just read Psalms 136, to allow your vision of His love and mercy to expand to His inexhaustible and irresistible size!

It is human and religious to place boundaries on His love, He says it never fails, period!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Crakjak
So true, so many things we miss in reading scritpure because of our preconseved thoughts on each passage. It is my opinion, that each and every one that calls himself a child of God needs to step back and question whether what they have been taught by the religious leaders of our day is truth.

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The father of the prodigal would still be waiting today, or until his son returned. He never, ever gives up!! Just read Psalms 136, to allow your vision of His love and mercy to expand to His inexhaustible and irresistible size!

It is human and religious to place boundaries on His love, He says it never fails, period!

What if the prodigal son gave up and never stopped wallowing in the mire, away from receiving the fulfillment of the promises his father made him? The love of God never fails and his mercy endures forever, but God is not going to force anyone to come to Him.

If He was this type of God, Pharaoh would have been saved, Judas would have been saved, Ahab would have been saved, Jezebel would have been saved, etc. If He was that type of God, there was no need for the Cross, no need for His blood to be shed, no need for Him to take a crown of thorns, for His mercy and love would have saved all men, regardless if they came to Him or not.

It's His will (desire, want) that none would perish and all would be led to repentance, but not all are led to repentance and some do perish. It's not because there is any deficiency on God's end, it's because, sometimes, the prodigal son doesn't come to himself and return back to the embrace of his father.

I'm not questioning whether the love of God fails or if His mercy really endures forever, for I believe very, very strongly in my heart that they do. I also know that the shepherd rejoiced when the one lost sheep out of one hundred was reunited with him. The shepherd didn't rejoice while the sheep was lost and didn't rejoice in the hope that the sheep would be found, he rejoiced when he was reunited with the sheep because the sheep decided to turn back to the shepherd.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

What if the prodigal son gave up and never stopped wallowing in the mire, away from receiving the fulfillment of the promises his father made him? The love of God never fails and his mercy endures forever, but God is not going to force anyone to come to Him.

If He was this type of God, Pharaoh would have been saved, Judas would have been saved, Ahab would have been saved, Jezebel would have been saved, etc. If He was that type of God, there was no need for the Cross, no need for His blood to be shed, no need for Him to take a crown of thorns, for His mercy and love would have saved all men, regardless if they came to Him or not.

It's His will (desire, want) that none would perish and all would be led to repentance, but not all are led to repentance and some do perish. It's not because there is any deficiency on God's end, it's because, sometimes, the prodigal son doesn't come to himself and return back to the embrace of his father.

I'm not questioning whether the love of God fails or if His mercy really endures forever, for I believe very, very strongly in my heart that they do. I also know that the shepherd rejoiced when the one lost sheep out of one hundred was reunited with him. The shepherd didn't rejoice while the sheep was lost and didn't rejoice in the hope that the sheep would be found, he rejoiced when he was reunited with the sheep because the sheep decided to turn back to the shepherd.

You are not questioning whether the love of God fails, you are declaring that it does fail at physical death. I don't believe His love ever fails. There is a purpose for good and evil in this world, but it is just for this world, the age to come will be quite different as God completes His work of redeeming all of His creation.