Questions about Eternity:

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Unfortunately there is no such thing, supernaturally or not, for there to be transparent gold.

None of what I'm about to say is an attack in any way Bro. Blume. But I think this logic is flawed. Here's why I think it is...

You say,

"Unfortunately there is no such thing, supernaturally or not, for there to be transparent gold."

The underlying presumption is that you know everything about the supernatural that one could possibly know. I know you would never claim such a thing consciously, but the logic you use DEMANDS IT in order to stand. In the New Creation (New Heavens and New Earth) I suspect that we will see living beings that we've never seen before (many may be angelic in nature). Perhaps species of flowers that are totally alien to earth and thrive only in the light of the Lord's presence. We may see what we've always assumed were the "laws of physics" turned on their heads at the hands of a mere angel. Upon study in this New Creation we might discover laws governing physics that our minds cannot fathom at present in our wildest dreams. One could easily say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to feed 15 to 20 thousand people with only five loaves and two fishes and have twelve baskets of left overs...but it happened. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to walk on the waters of a stormy sea and still them with the words from His mouth, according to the laws of science as we understand them. A "transparent gold" might be nothing compared to what we will one day behold. I'd not mock it so soon. You might be left standing a little embarassed with the doubters.

And if you carefully read John 14, WE are the mansions the Father lives in.

The entire premise of "mansions" is incorrect. Christ uses a term best translated "dwellings". The word was often used for the thatch roofed houses that were often build together wherein families dwelt in the first century Palestine. Christ isn't speaking of "mansions" as we know them today. The allusion is to a dwelling in spiritual closeness and community.

Consider this, nothing in heaven will be corruptible, right?

1 Peter 1:18 KJV Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

In a New Creation one will find New Gold and New Silver. Nothing will be corruptible. We cannot compare the silver and gold of this fallen world to that which might be found in a new and glorified creation. Please note... nothing was corruptible when God originally created the cosmos. The principles of corruption, decay, and death only fell upon creation on account of sin. Satan's goal was to corrupt God's creation, and namely man, through sin. Satan's goal was to ruin God's creation. Will Satan be found to have succeeded? I vote, "No". In the New Creation all of creation will be glorified, eternal, incorruptible. Satan will have won NOTHING. Christ's own body was raised glorified, physical, and incorruptible. Thomas touched the wounds. And Christ didn't "fade" from existence like a spiritual apparition...Christ ascended "bodily" and left our world and proceeded to that place wherein He was to prepare a place for us and return to receive us unto Himself. I believe that place is the New Jerusalem.

GOLD stands for DEITY. Street stands for OUR WALKS. Those in the Kingdom will WALK A DIVINELY LED WALK.

Ah... yes, gold is representative of deity. As for "streets"... I'm not sure if they represent our walk. What if it represents the "path" that the Gospel has laid out for man??? You see... if you "spiritualize" things they become so open to interpretation that anything can mean anything through the eye of the beholder. And once anything can mean anything... it actually means nothing. One might argue that Christ's resurrection "stands for our rising up from adverse circumstances" and go on to argue that He never arose bodily. This is a very liberal and wishy washy position to take. Because for every "spiritual meaning" you claim... you'll have others claiming other "spiritual meanings". Now... I don't doubt the presence of symbolic representation in the New Jerusalem. But it's reality lends strength to their meaning because the symbol endures to forever proclaim said truths. The city is a real and present hyroglyph for lack of a better term.

This verse says we already arrived at the New Jerusalem:

Hebrews 12:22 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Ah... but you fail to see how terms can be used two ways. I can say, "The City of Dayton witnessed a spectacular demonstration today." In saying this I am talking about the people of Dayton. However, this doesn't deny that Dayton is an actual city wherein they find their citizenship. Yes... Bro. Blume... you and I are the New Jerusalem. Every elect saint of God is the New Jerusalem. However, that doesn't refute the idea that we shall actually one day inhabit an actual city.

I find this amazing. Too many see things as "either/or". We think the reality of a thing must be spiritual and not literal...or so literal we loose the meaning of the spiritual. However, most often both realities are true. The Tabernacle is an excellent example. The Tabernacle was representative of spiritual realities... yet it was also an actual tabernacle.

[Aquila]

The "spiritualist" will loose the thrill of knowing the truth because he or she reduces plain truths to intangible gobbly-gook that could mean anything. Soon there is no real city, no real river, no real throne, no real angels, no real resurrection, no real anything. Everything is just a shadow of what they think it means. And everyone is left to wonder what it really means. lol

Now... I'm one for arguing for a literal New Jerusalem...a reality...and then I'll discuss the symbolic significance of it's architecture. I have the best of both worlds.

[deafdriscoll]

Aquila thank you for your post. I had read many years ago what heaven was like. there is a verse that says the streets are transparent gold. I forget where it is. I would not be able to find it now.
Evryone is entitled to believe what they want too. deafdriscoll

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Many never really study Eternity or hear much preached about Eternity (the Eternal State). Most have no idea what it will be like. The find themselves living their Christian lives out all the while hoping that "something" better awaits in Eternity.

Here is where I had to accept the absolute facts about this issue; none of us have any idea what it will be like. I asked my wife this question last night; what would you tell someone if they asked you this question: “What is going to happen to me when I die?” The more she thought about it, the more dumbfounded she was!

We are lying to this person in question if we claim to know the pathway of the deceased. It’s like trying to tell someone what the Universe is like a trillion light years from here before we had telescopes.

I don't believe honest conclusions about Eternity will be valid, unless, we admit in total sincerity that we just don't know. If we don't admit this, it's all guess work. Even the Bible is very vague, and this includes both the Old and New Testaments. In fact, the Old Testament virtually says nothing about the afterlife, and the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, nor life after death.

The Sadducees rejected the belief in Resurrection of the Dead, which was a central tenet believed by Pharisees and by Early Christians. This often provoked hostilities. Furthermore, the Sadducees rejected the Oral Law as proposed by the Pharisees. Rather, they saw the Torah as the sole source of divine authority. The written law, in its depiction of the priesthood, corroborated the power and enforced the hegemony of the Sadducees in Judean society.

According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that:

There is no fate
God does not commit evil
Man has free will; “man has the free choice of good or evil”
The soul is not immortal; there is no afterlife, and;
There are no rewards or penalties after death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

I believe that God expects us to be honest, regardless of what anyone says, preaches, teaches, or claims as being the Truth. The only person or Being that can verify Eternity are those who have been there, and I have yet to talk to someone who has entered this place to tell about it.

Remember: the number one cause of Religion is confusion. Ask yourself, "Are you swayed on this Topic by your Religion?"

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The "spiritualist" will loose the thrill of knowing the truth because he or she reduces plain truths to intangible gobbly-gook that could mean anything. Soon there is no real city, no real river, no real throne, no real angels, no real resurrection, no real anything. Everything is just a shadow of what they think it means. And everyone is left to wonder what it really means. lol

Now... I'm one for arguing for a literal New Jerusalem...a reality...and then I'll discuss the symbolic significance of it's architecture. I have the best of both worlds.

Absolutely! I think the reason many Christians are so "sleepy" is they dont have any real sense of or faith toward immortality and heavenly things. Ever since I started this walk Ive heard much more about how we should focus on the here and now instead of the sweet bye and bye.

Paul said our citizenship is in Heaven from whence we look for the Saviour. We are to earthly minded. And yes I believe we will live in Heaven and we will also be doing things on the Earth. Our spiritual bodies will have the same abilitiy as as angels bodies do. We will enjoy the heavenly realms or we can enjoy the physical realms. We can interact with angelic beings, glorified saints or mortals living on Earth.

[bbyrd009]

Mmm, I gotta say that the Word is alive, and while it may strike some as "distortion," I can only say that you are not reading the original MSS, but trusting a man, a child really, a guy who prolly got into "eschatology," no offense, the point being that ten voices in translation can only be better than one or two, your understanding cannot possibly be lessened, only improved. I have only benefitted from the inclusion of multiple translations and a (much) less literal approach to Scripture.
I fully accept that...transparent gold, lol, is surely possible, although any point there entirely escapes me; however, "path" and "walk" are both resonating, and I think you might be agreeing there in either interpretation.

[mfblume]

New Jerusalem city is exactly what John was told it was. The Bride. Just like the Lamb with seven eyes/horns was Jesus.

Aquila, it is an extrabiblical premise that says there is gold that is unnatural.

But these things do not concern me. As I said, we need to focus on the spiritual Kingdom right now. That is how the bible lays it out. hardly any info on heaven and tons of info on how to be led by God now. The degree of weight we find in the bible for everything overall is that which I seek to see in my own focus.

[bbyrd009]

Um, one might easily postulate that there are both spiritual and physical aspects to many Scriptural ideas like this? The Bible is a physical reflection, really, not the entire, Word, for instance? I see a spiritual and a physical temple, tongues is surely more than even the three reflections we have of it, and Lord help us that OnenessThreeness thing, trying to pin God like a butterfly on a mat or something, when it's obv...I am experiencing streets of gold, personally, a walk down a path, with physical and spiritual aspects (not spiritual and physical aspects; it even changes the way you talk, lol)(most important last; to lose or to win; because lost and then saved?) Ha, transparent streets of gold is suddenly this freaky, God sounding thing that maybe they will see (and grok "transparent gold"), and we won't, then, lol. Hmm.

[Aquila]

Actually the Bible says a lot about death, Heaven (The Intermediate State), and the New Creation (The Eternal State). I'm on my cell phone right now, so I'll write tomorrow with biblical references covering what happens when one dies, existence in Heaven, the resurrection (doctrine of Glorification), and the Eternal State (life in the New Heavens and the New Earth). These are all important biblical doctrines that I'm finding too many don't understand or believe. Sadly many don't realize the implications of denying these doctrines. I'll try to cover them.

God bless.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

New Jerusalem city is exactly what John was told it was. The Bride. Just like the Lamb with seven eyes/horns was Jesus.

The city is the Bride because the Bride inhabits the city. If the entire Bride were on a ship, we could point to the ship and say, "Behold the Bride!"

Aquila, it is an extrabiblical premise that says there is gold that is unnatural.

When God creates a New Heavens and a New Earth ("Behold I make ALL THINGS NEW."), that speaks of a New Creation, redeemed from the curse. This includes gold.

But these things do not concern me. As I said, we need to focus on the spiritual Kingdom right now. That is how the bible lays it out. hardly any info on heaven and tons of info on how to be led by God now. The degree of weight we find in the bible for everything overall is that which I seek to see in my own focus.

The Bible actually tells us quite a bit about death, Heaven, and the New Creation. The only thing that prevents one from seeing these truths is a Christoplationist approach to the texts.