Thoughts on Holiness by David Bernard

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Caffeine can be just as bad as Alcohol.

i never heard of people passing out at the wheel and killing some one because they had a pepsi.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Being at peace with men, is not the same thing as pleasing men. You know the old "We agree to disagree".

Also, you can never be Holy. Holiness is only a path to becoming Holy. GOD is the ONLY holy one. "The Holy ONE of Israel".

Context and congruencey is very important when teaching biblical principles.

Where did you get your doctrine that you can never be holy? Look again at what the Apostle Peter wrote to the saints.

1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:14-16 1 Peter 1:14-16

This is what the God of the Bible requires. Men say "not so Lord!"

There is not one verse in all of scripture that says the saints are never able to be holy. Our holiness is OF YHWH. Yet he commands us BE YE HOLY FOR I AM HOLY.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by acerrak

However the Holiness the bible speaks of is the Inward Holiness produced by God. however with his book he has basically interpreting for God how these standards should be, just as the elders did for israel. there is no difference.

Ah, you need to read the bible more. You are coming from the point of view that the Old Testament no longer matters. When you come from the point of view of "Outward Holiness is brought by a change in Inward Holiness" then you will come unto his understanding.

Legalism is a the thought that Outward Holiness will save you. We as Christians need Outward Holiness to show the inward change. For if you receive Christ, but change not, ye are none of his.

The problem is, with our society, churches have become so Secular, that there is to clear distinction between the "Church" and the "World", yet our society had become more "Moralized" by using the teachings of "Christian-ism".

I know some of you hate this, but if you take a look at the world in the late 1000's to early 1900's, 99.99% of your women were modest in dress and action. Why? Because of the hard line rule of "legalism" dominated by the Catholic Church and Reformed Churches. If you look at society now (from the mid 1900's to present) you will see a big swing toward Secularism, Paganism, and Humanism. You have Christians that think tattoos are a way to display there "Love for Christ". They have taken a pagan ritual and brought it into the Church. That is heresy to the highest. You have the same Christians that were a cross, that do the same thing.

We, as Christians, should not desire to be like that, but "Come out and be ye separate". Do I agree with the hard line, "Your sleeve needs to be X long", type of belief? No. Emphatically no. The change must start by the renewing of the soul first, and that will in change, display in an outward Holiness.

Do I believe in standards for those in charge. Yes, even Paul gave instructions to those that desire to rule. Is it a salvation issue? No.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Ah, you need to read the bible more. You are coming from the point of view that the Old Testament no longer matters. When you come from the point of view of "Outward Holiness is brought by a change in Inward Holiness" then you will come unto his understanding.

Legalism is a the thought that Outward Holiness will save you. We as Christians need Outward Holiness to show the inward change. For if you receive Christ, but change not, ye are none of his.

The problem is, with our society, churches have become so Secular, that there is to clear distinction between the "Church" and the "World", yet our society had become more "Moralized" by using the teachings of "Christian-ism".

I know some of you hate this, but if you take a look at the world in the late 1000's to early 1900's, 99.99% of your women were modest in dress and action. Why? Because of the hard line rule of "legalism" dominated by the Catholic Church and Reformed Churches. If you look at society now (from the mid 1900's to present) you will see a big swing toward Secularism, Paganism, and Humanism. You have Christians that think tattoos are a way to display there "Love for Christ". They have taken a pagan ritual and brought it into the Church. That is heresy to the highest. You have the same Christians that were a cross, that do the same thing.

We, as Christians, should not desire to be like that, but "Come out and be ye separate". Do I agree with the hard line, "Your sleeve needs to be X long", type of belief? No. Emphatically no. The change must start by the renewing of the soul first, and that will in change, display in an outward Holiness.

Do I believe in standards for those in charge. Yes, even Paul gave instructions to those that desire to rule. Is it a salvation issue? No.

i already stated some where that holiness was a Inward change going out ward done by God

what difference did they have in the old testement. They were governed by mans rule.

The pharasees stated teacher why dont your disciples wash there hands?

Lol, i some what agree why didnt they wash there hands? The point jesus rebutled with is the traditions of man have become so important as to trying to obtain a out ward Holiness that they made void the word of God.

dont you think when they fasted they were trying to be Holy, yet they have thier reward.

i also hate to tell ya buddy but women were wearing trousers since about the 7th century maybe check your history again ..

also in biblical days the tunics for man and woman were very similiar

when one looks at deuteronomy 22:5 from a jewish perspective as sam made point of.

They viewed this as women shouldnt wear preistly garments also no armor. also this scripture was used for a man not to shave their face to have the appearance of a woman.

Itsd very interesting, but again the bible states a woman should wear stuff that pertains to her. and since they do make pants for women it would fall under being exceptable for God.
Good deal

[SRM]

Holiness is defined by the clothes you wear and the places you go and even some of the friends you hang out with..least that was how it was presented to me. I think I actually turned people away by my pharisee attitude.I no longer wear the badge,I have holiness principles based off of the standards I was taught.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by SRM

Holiness is defined by the clothes you wear and the places you go and even some of the friends you hang out with..least that was how it was presented to me. I think I actually turned people away by my pharisee attitude.I no longer wear the badge,I have holiness principles based off of the standards I was taught.

How many of you have ever been convicted about a suit.?

Im sure its not the norm. But i was heading to church oneday. I stopped at the gas station to get some gas, and some ments. Dont want no stinky breathe at the alter.

When i went to go into the store to pay, a man opened the Door for me.
He opened the door not becuae of me, but because of the suit i had on.

Im like man im just like you. I actually felt bad. I mean when i preached i was in blue Jeans. I dont need to look all fancy. Im just a man.

Holiness isnt just a how good you look on the outside, infact i think some people take modesty to far and church is turned into a fashion show.

Holiness is a attitude on how you conduct yourself with others. its about letting that Light shine. its about presenting your self acceptable unto God.

Its amazing How beggars in trash clothes have more rightousness in thier rags than those of nicely dress,

Modesty was brought up to seperate women from prostitutes and men from cross dressing. Looking decent and modest can be with pants or skirts. its about covering things that should be covered, and about acting mature.

not about a specific dress code.

[Pendragon]

Originally Posted by acerrak

i never heard of people passing out at the wheel and killing some one because they had a pepsi.

HEHE!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by acerrak

i never heard of people passing out at the wheel and killing some one because they had a pepsi.

So the solution is to either drink Pepsi or be Amish... Hoovie starts looking for his "plain" clothes...

[The Lemon]

Well, to me it still comes down to balance...I know that has been said ad nauseum! Worldliness is real, sin is real - so is righteousness and purity. It does seem that there is a very real stigma attached to Holiness, and it mostly relates to outward standards, as well as entertainment.

The fact is Holiness is also real and biblical, sadly though many have thrown out the baby with the bathwater because of interpretive pricinple and that is unfortunate to say the least. We all need to follow after God and the leading of both his Word and Spirit, there is one undeniable fact however, we all come short, and since none of us has the badge of perfection by our own works, we ought to be gracious to those who may be in a different place in God then we are - and that should be the case no matter if you are more conservative or liberal concerning the application of expressed outward Holiness.

What I have always found to be mind boggling in my own life is when leadership treats their own convictions and lifestyle vague when asked pointedly about the expectations they have of saints and leaders. Anotherwards, I have asked and expressed my views on Holiness, waited for response and feedback and recieved none...that is a head scratcher! Sometimes things like outward standards are treated as measuring sticks of a persons walk and place in God, even if not directly expressed by the pastor/leader.

Having said all that, regardless of what I agree on or disagree with, I have a personal responsibility to walk with God; that does not get excused because of someone elses convictions or lact thereof.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Well, to me it still comes down to balance...I know that has been said ad nauseum! Worldliness is real, sin is real - so is righteousness and purity. It does seem that there is a very real stigma attached to Holiness, and it mostly relates to outward standards, as well as entertainment.

The fact is Holiness is also real and biblical, sadly though many have thrown out the baby with the bathwater because of interpretive pricinple and that is unfortunate to say the least. We all need to follow after God and the leading of both his Word and Spirit, there is one undeniable fact however, we all come short, and since none of us has the badge of perfection by our own works, we ought to be gracious to those who may be in a different place in God then we are - and that should be the case no matter if you are more conservative or liberal concerning the application of expressed outward Holiness.

What I have always found to be mind boggling in my own life is when leadership treats their own convictions and lifestyle vague when asked pointedly about the expectations they have of saints and leaders. Anotherwards, I have asked and expressed my views on Holiness, waited for response and feedback and recieved none...that is a head scratcher! Sometimes things like outward standards are treated as measuring sticks of a persons walk and place in God, even if not directly expressed by the pastor/leader.

Having said all that, regardless of what I agree on or disagree with, I have a personal responsibility to walk with God; that does not get excused because of someone elses convictions or lact thereof.

well said Lemon!