The conscience of AFF

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Oneness Pentecostalism - I use that loosely defined as

Oneness - Those who speak the Name of Jesus at baptism.

Pentecostalism - Those who believe tongues and the gifts of the Spirit are for today and did not cease entirely after the writings of the New Testament.

This is similar to the criteria Talmage French used is his research for Our God is ONE, the most current and exhaustive work documenting Oneness Pentecostalism throughout the world.

Thanks for clarifying. Although, your definition for Pentecostalism would be better defined as "Continuationism" I think. There are a great many believers and denominations that hold this view as well, so it isn't something exclusive to Pentecostals.

I believe "judicial law" has been set down over such Biblical doctrines as belief in Jesus, and repentance, but the soteriological details on the significance of baptism and "tongues" are still being hammered out by many. In other words, some religious leaders have set the bar for Christianity higher than the initial establishment that Christ Himself first put forth. I think forums like this are raising that point, and the belief system a person holds to isn't something that is static, but rather in a state of flux.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Thanks for clarifying. Although, your definition for Pentecostalism would be better defined as "Continuationism" I think. There are a great many believers and denominations that hold this view as well, so it isn't something exclusive to Pentecostals.

I believe "judicial law" has been set down over such Biblical doctrines as belief in Jesus, and repentance, but the soteriological details on the significance of baptism and "tongues" is still being hammered out by many. In other words, some religious leaders have set the bar for Christianity higher than the initial establishment that Christ Himself first put forth. I think forums like this are raising this point, and the belief system of many isn't static, but in a state of flux.

I would be interested in exploring those Continuationist who are non-Pentecostal in the generic sense. If one does not speak in tongues, but accepts the practice and worships with those that have/do he could be "Continuationist" and "Penetecostal" IMO.

As to you last statement - Amen. I think it's true of all denominations and movements, and especially true for those that are relatively new in Christianity.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I would be interested in exploring those Continuationist who are non-Pentecostal in the generic sense. If one does not speak in tongues, but accepts the practice and worships with those that have/do he could be "Continuationist" and "Penetecostal" IMO.

As to you last statement - Amen. I think it's true of all denominations and movements, and especially true for those that are relatively new in Christianity.

The continuationists actually has an entirely different dilema. It's not whether miracles and tongues have ceased. It's more a question as to whether Pentecostals practice real tongues. Simply because they don't find the practice offensive does not mean that they think it is real and genuine... IMO.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Thanks for clarifying. Although, your definition for Pentecostalism would be better defined as "Continuationism" I think. There are a great many believers and denominations that hold this view as well, so it isn't something exclusive to Pentecostals.

I believe "judicial law" has been set down over such Biblical doctrines as belief in Jesus, and repentance, but the soteriological details on the significance of baptism and "tongues" is still being hammered out by many. In other words, some religious leaders have set the bar for Christianity higher than the initial establishment that Christ Himself first put forth. I think forums like this are raising that point, and the belief system a person holds to isn't something that is static, but rather in a state of flux.

I think that is soo true. Individuals change their beleifs many times over the course of a lifetime. They sometimes even oscilate back and forth between two different beliefs. So I think such a rigid stance on the importance of doctrine is really counter-productive to the practical aspect most people find themselves going through. I wonder, do pastors constantly change their beleifs and views of things like the rest of us?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The continuationists actually has an entirely different dilema. It's not whether miracles and tongues have ceased. It's more a question as to whether Pentecostals practice real tongues. Simply because they don't find the practice offensive does not mean that they think it is real and genuine... IMO.

At best you could say SOME continuationist have this dilemma. Pentecostals ARE continuationist. Furthermore I, as a Pentecostal continuationist have the same dilemma and the same questions concerning tongues and other gifts. LOL!

Even Paul I believe had the question and advised that we judge the manifestations and whether they be in keeping with the Spirit and God's word..

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

At best you could say SOME continuationist have this dilemma. Pentecostals ARE continuationist. Furthermore I, as a Pentecostal continuationist have the same dilemma and the same questions concerning tongues and other gifts. LOL!

Even Paul I believe had the question and advised that we judge the manifestations.

lol, so do you think it would be possible for a person to honestly reconcile believing the tongues being practiced by pentecostals are not from God and being able to worship with them as fellow christians?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

lol, so do you think it would be possible for a person to honestly reconcile believing the tongues being practiced by pentecostals are not from God and being able to worship with them as fellow christians?

Well, as a continuationist, I would say tongues are from God. That one is Pentecostal does not have bearing on the matter.

Pentecostals are no different that other Christians. Some, as in the Corinthian church abuse God's gifts, and there are others less than sincere. Others still, who have the external "markings" of being Christian and yet have never even been Born Again. In spite of this (certainly not because of it), Pentecostals in general are in the Body of Christ.

So yes I can and do worship with them - even though I believe as did Paul, that not all is God sanctioned.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Well, as a continuationist, I would say tongues are from God. That one is Pentecostal does not have bearing on the matter.

Pentecostals are no different that other Christians. Some, as in the Corinthian church abuse God's gifts, and there are others less than sincere. Others still, who have the external "markings" of being Christian and yet have never even been Born Again. In spite of this (certainly not because of it), Pentecostals in general are in the Body of Christ.

So yes I can and do worship with them - even though I believe as did Paul, that not all is God sanctioned.

What I was asking about is not about some pentecostals use tongues apporopriatly and some don't and how to reconcile this. What I was getting at is there are a great many people who believe that the gifts have not ceased, including tongues. However these people believe that what pentecostals call tongues really aren't. They beleive that the real gift of tongues would be much different than what pentecosals do. Can such a person like this reconcile this belief and still come together and worship with pentecostals that he thinks are not even using the real gift of tongues?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by jfrog

What I was asking about is not about some pentecostals use tongues apporopriatly and some don't and how to reconcile this. What I was getting at is there are a great many people who believe that the gifts have not ceased, including tongues. However these people believe that what pentecostals call tongues really aren't. They beleive that the real gift of tongues would be much different than what pentecosals do. Can such a person like this reconcile this belief and still come together and worship with pentecostals that he thinks are not even using the real gift of tongues?

"...what communion hath light with darkness?" (Which side is light and which is darkness is left as an exercise for the reader. )

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

What I was asking about is not about some pentecostals use tongues apporopriatly and some don't and how to reconcile this. What I was getting at is there are a great many people who believe that the gifts have not ceased, including tongues. However these people believe that what pentecostals call tongues really aren't. They beleive that the real gift of tongues would be much different than what pentecosals do. Can such a person like this reconcile this belief and still come together and worship with pentecostals that he thinks are not even using the real gift of tongues?

I would hope so - at least on some level, realizing we are all in the body of Christ and trust in him alone for salvation.

Just out of curiosity, can you provide example of who these people are and examples of how tongues have not ceased among them? Or do they simply adhere ideologically that the gifts have not ceased? It seems a bit strange that somebody would say tongues are a gift from God - but not if the speaker is Pentecostal.