Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:14 PM
ReformedDave's Avatar
ReformedDave ReformedDave is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,684
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
Open thiest would hold the view that God doesn't know the choices you will make. I had a prof at Regent who holds this view.
Popular in some areas(Pinnock/ Saunders etc). Have you read John Frames' response, "No other God"?
__________________
"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it."

- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:14 PM
Nahum Nahum is offline
Registered User


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,102
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReformedDave View Post
And since He knew Lucifer would rebel could Lucifer NOT rebel?
I don't adhere to that view.

I think He knew that Lucifer would rebel.

He did not make Lucifer rebel.

Two entirely different things.

Just because he knew what would happen, does not mean that there was no free will involved.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:18 PM
ReformedDave's Avatar
ReformedDave ReformedDave is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,684
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
I don't adhere to that view.

I think He knew that Lucifer would rebel.

He did not make Lucifer rebel.

Two entirely different things.

Just because he knew what would happen, does not mean that there was no free will involved.
So since God knew from before history that Lucifer would rebel Lucifer could have not rebelled? What would that have done to God's omniscience?
__________________
"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it."

- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Baron1710's Avatar
Baron1710 Baron1710 is offline
Cross-examine it!


 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orcutt, CA.
Posts: 6,736
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReformedDave View Post
Popular in some areas(Pinnock/ Saunders etc). Have you read John Frames' response, "No other God"?
I haven't really read too much on it one way or the other. Lyle Story at Regent University holds that view and I had him for a class and we discussed it briefly outside of class.
__________________
"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:35 PM
crakjak's Avatar
crakjak crakjak is offline
crakjak


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

The only reasonable answer is that God knew and He has a purpose in Lucifer's fall.
Why did God then create man, knowing that man could be infected with the sin virus?
Again the answer is He knew and He has a purpose in man understanding good and evil. If God knew all these things and He did, then the doctrine of endless torment is completely inconsistent with God's nature and character.

The final answer is that God will completely redeem ALL of His creation. This redemption cost the life of the "only begotten Son of God", all of this whole process glorifies God!
Some folks will rebel longer than others but all will finally surrender willing to the either the love and grace of God, or they will surrender to the severity of God. Both His love and His severity serve the same purpose, similar to our love and severity to our wayward children.
__________________
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)


www.tentmaker.org
www.coventryreserve.org
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-02-2008, 06:46 PM
ReformedDave's Avatar
ReformedDave ReformedDave is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,684
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
The only reasonable answer is that God knew and He has a purpose in Lucifer's fall.
Why did God then create man, knowing that man could be infected with the sin virus?
Again the answer is He knew and He has a purpose in man understanding good and evil. If God knew all these things and He did, then the doctrine of endless torment is completely inconsistent with God's nature and character.

The final answer is that God will completely redeem ALL of His creation. This redemption cost the life of the "only begotten Son of God", all of this whole process glorifies God!
Some folks will rebel longer than others but all will finally surrender willing to the either the love and grace of God, or they will surrender to the severity of God. Both His love and His severity serve the same purpose, similar to our love and severity to our wayward children.
I agree!!!!! With about a third.......
__________________
"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it."

- Groucho Marx
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-02-2008, 07:08 PM
pelathais's Avatar
pelathais pelathais is offline
Accepts all friends requests


 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
God is omniscient = all knowing.

God is omnipresent = everywhere at once, not confined to present.

Why Did God Create Lucifer?
Just my 2 cents worth... Can good exist without evil?

Consider Isaiah 45:7. Some have seen an important difference in the verbs used here. What is said is that the Hebrew verbs used for "create" in the context of "light" and "peace" indicate a different activity than the verbs used for the "create" of "darkness" and "evil." I'm no Hebraist and can't really argue it one way or the other, just my observation of what the "experts" have opined.

The idea here is that God did NOT really have to do anything to create "darkness." God's activity was to create the light, however a necessary consequence of "light" is shadow and darkness. To really understand this you have to appreciate that there was no "darkness" before the time of the creation. "Darkness" first appears as a consequence of the presence of "the earth" and "the deep..." (Genesis 1:1).

Basically, it is said, to "create" the "darkness" all God had to do was to simply do anything at all. Just by being there and having an existence distinct from anything else, darkness would come into being. There are no shadows in the void. Only when you have a light source do you have a shadow.

So, perhaps, it is with God and evil. All He had to do was to do anything at all and there existed at least the potential for evil. His nature is such that just by "showing up" other things suddenly are compared in contrast to Him. Inevitably, some things look really bad.

As a corollary, consider how it was when He first "showed up" in your life (I remember mine). Suddenly I didn't feel like I was so just and righteous. In fact, I felt rather unclean. He has that effect, just His presence.

So when He created anything that existed apart from Himself, that "thing" or person immediately had at least the potential to be evil. It was inevitable. The only other choice would have been to do nothing at all, and then where would we be? We simply wouldn't be. There would not have been anything but Him and His holiness. But He appears to have wanted something more. And so, there's us and evil and pain and suffering and moments of joy and everything else.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-02-2008, 07:12 PM
rgcraig's Avatar
rgcraig rgcraig is offline
My Family!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Collierville, TN
Posts: 31,786
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

I always thought it was about choices.
__________________
Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-02-2008, 07:29 PM
pelathais's Avatar
pelathais pelathais is offline
Accepts all friends requests


 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Murphy View Post
If the angels had free will (including the ability to rebel) then what was the point in creating humanity...
According to Talmudic commentary, Psalm 144:3 is a complaint by the angels. They are said to be astonished by what God has done in creating man.

In verse 2, following the Masoretic text (that the KJV does not at this point) and others, we find that "the peoples" are placed under the feet of this "king" being described. Then skipping over to Hebrews 2, it seems that the writer of Hebrews didn't have a King James Bible either and he (or "she", okay?) has a "king" in mind as well, ruling over peoples.

Further, the writer of Hebrews goes on to associate this "man" with "the Son." It almost seems that God created man for the very purpose of becoming a man Himself. No wonder the angels were astonished. Maybe this was too much for some of them and they rebelled?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-02-2008, 07:38 PM
pelathais's Avatar
pelathais pelathais is offline
Accepts all friends requests


 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
Re: Why Did God Create Lucifer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710 View Post
Open thiest would hold the view that God doesn't know the choices you will make. I had a prof at Regent who holds this view.
"Process theology"?

I prefer the path of accepting to seemingly unresolvable points, at the same time. Free will and determinism, simultaneously. God's foreknowledge and and our free will choices. Both sides of the coin, at once.

I contend that this is the only correct view. The Evangelicals and Pinnock and Saunders only see one side of the coin at a time, which is natural. But in the realm of the supernatural, both sides are evident together.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why did God create Mosquitos? Elihu Fellowship Hall 24 06-24-2013 03:40 PM
Create A Gas War. Joelel Fellowship Hall 65 06-08-2008 10:51 PM
The Lucifer Spirit - T.F. Tenney Felicity Fellowship Hall 8 10-23-2007 07:25 AM
Why Did God Create Man? crakjak Fellowship Hall 88 10-22-2007 12:56 PM
The Lucifer Effect Rhymis The Library 5 05-09-2007 08:59 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Praxeas
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.