Faith: How Far Is Too Far?

[A_PoMo]

"We are also sending out national missionaries much cheaper than supporting Americans and their lavish (usually) lifestyle...the national can live about anywhere, eat anything and does not need a lot of things we Americans think we need."

I just saw this on another thread about missionaries. Thought it was relevant.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

"We are also sending out national missionaries much cheaper than supporting Americans and their lavish (usually) lifestyle...the national can live about anywhere, eat anything and does not need a lot of things we Americans think we need."

I just saw this on another thread about missionaries. Thought it was relevant.

I love missions!!!!! I think I've been around the world twice in supporting missions. But the one thing I have against the American missionary program is that we have focused too much on sending Americans to live luxuriously in foreign fields, and not enough time raising up national leaders. The national leaders we have raised we've made too many dependent on us instead of on God.

In other words, I agree with what you just said

[gloryseeker]

Took awhile, but good post!

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I agree with your principle for the most part even if I disagree with your hermeneutics at times.

In all honesty I would say that I am in a major minority in the hermeneutics arena, but I would also say that people are constantly amazed at how the Word works for me.

I have found that most Christians want to eternalize all the promises of God and I just believe that God wants me blessed, healed, delivered, and manifesting His glory. Having said that I'm going to stick with my hermeneutics....they're working.

Mark 10: It's such an odd passage to use I think for your position because it doesn't really cohere. Even more so when Mark has so much to say about poor people being blessed in spite of their poorness. On the one hand JC seems to say we'll get 100X in houses and lands. But then he also says you'll get 100X mothers, and sisters, and brothers and persecutions. That's more than most prosperity guys will want to claim, especially the persecution part. And certainly non of the Apstoles, the original audience, of this passage could lay claim to vast riches although they could testify to persecution. The word used for "houses" here refers more to "home villiage". Thus I think the primary thrust of this passage is that JC is promising a kingdom, a new set of relationships, a new covenent land if the gave up their temporal things to follow him. In the context they were focused on physical, temporal wealth and power and as so often is the case JC was trying to get them out of this temporal thinking to re-imagine his kingdom in a new terms and in doing so he used temporal terms to describe it.

Interesting analysis. I really enjoyed reading it.

Regarding Adam and Eve they did lose authority and dominion and all that. It's part of the curse. JC came as the new Adam not help us find happiness in temporal things but to show that true happiness and abundance of life is found in the here and now but in a spiritual sense.

I would have to disagree with you, and I would think that my disagreement would be a major reason why you disagree with my interpretation of other scriptures.

Most Christians focus on salvation as the purpose, I don't. Salvation is the need. Basis of thought, when God created Adam and gave him all power, authority, and dominion Adam operated or revealed the glory of God in the earth. This is the purpose....the revealing of God.

When Adam sinned there became a "need" which was salvation. Jesus came to break the separation between God and man so that once again man could reveal the glory of God in the earth. 2 Cor 4:7 / Eph 3:20 both speak to the power that operates through us.

This life has nothing to do with happiness or abundance, it has everything to do with revealing God. Many look at Adam/Eve as having lost the garden. They didn't lose the garden, they lost the ability to walk with God. The garden was the benefit of walking with God.

This is where many miss it on the prosperity of God. There are manifestations that take place when one walks with God. My interpretations always stems from the revealing of Christ in us, and not focused on my salvation.

In the OT and the NT God made SOME people wealthy, not all. He does this according to his good pleasure and, as you say, its purpose is to bless the kingdom.

I agree with you that in both the OT and NT some are wealthy and some are not. Where I disagree with you is that the determination of who was wealthy and who wasn't was in the hand of God.

If you are correct then God is a respecter of persons and He has lied. A Covenant is an agreement. In this agreement God states what He will do and what we have to do. Faith is the receiver God gave us to access all of His promises. The ability to be wealthy or not be wealthy is in the hands of the believer.

As one post stated in the tithe thread, "I don't expect anything in return for my tithe." Praise God they won't receive anything, which is also why they struggle. Personally I don't believe, I expect God to hold up His end of the covenant.

Another person made a post that we aren't supposed to own anything expensive....he never will. I do own expensive things and God has given me every one of them. He also knows that if He asks He can have whatever I have. For instance, my wife and I sold a home one time and we were not sure what we wanted to buy so we were temporarily renting. We had kept $28K in the bank for the deposit, costs, fix-ups or whatever. He spoke to me to sow it - we did. No questions, no hesitations. I'll sell my home in a heartbeat if He wants. All I am is a steward of His stuff and He gives me good stuff.

The Apostle Paul is a prime example. He lived pretty much and to mouth and didn't even have a second cloak. Yet he was happy and learned to live in poverty and in abundance.

The Apostle Paul is an interesting character. Many misunderstand him and his ministry. The revelation of grace was revealed to Paul. Grace is another misunderstood aspect, but that's another thread. Paul had a specific ministry:

Acts 9:15-16
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
(KJV)

Part of Paul's calling was to suffer great things for the Name of Christ in order to reveal how grace works. Many try to use the aspect that he had to work to make a case that those in the five-fold should hold down an outside job. However, Paul told the Corinthians that he made them an inferior church because he was not a burden to them. He said, "forgive me for this wrong." (2 Cor 12:13)

You can't look at what Paul suffered and say that we all must suffer in like manner unless you have been called to the same ministry.

...part II in next post

[gloryseeker]

Your ref in Eph doesn't work because it isn't referring to this age, it's referring to the coming age.

This is a prime example how people like to eternalize everything. The reason that I believe people like to eternalize (throw into eternity) is so they don't have to give an account for why their faith isn't working.


Eph 1:15-23
15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which {exists} among you, and your love for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention {of you} in my prayers;
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

• You are not going to need the spirit of wisdom or a revelation of the knowledge of Him in the age to come. You will have by definition of being with Him. We need this now so that we can operate correctly in this world.

18 {I pray that} the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. {These are} in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

• The surpassing greatness of His power is toward us who believe. Do you believe? They this power is for you. This is in accordance with the working of His might, not will be in accordance.

20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly {places}

• This was brought about when Christ was raised. It is not a future thing, it is a now thing.

21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

• "not only in this age" Again this is a now thing!

22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

• If you are in Christ then you are positioned with Christ, now and also in the age to come.

23 which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. (NAS)

The church is the fulness of Him. Jesus walked in all power, authority, and dominion. We're His Body and we have the right to walk in everything He walked in because the purpose is to reveal the glory of God. This is why Jesus was the first born of many brethren....I'm one of those brethren!

Again, the Deut ref's don't work because they're not written to us.

I guess I'm like the bubble bee. I'm just foolish enough to believe that it was written for me and guess what.....it works!

All the Bible is written for us, but not all the Bible is written to us.

You'll never experience the promise that you don't believe were written to you.

If you're willing to take the blessings then you have to accept the curses too.

Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(KJV)

I take the blessings and leave the curse behind

I see your point in 2 Cor 9 about sufficiency. But you defend my point when you define "need' correctly. We have to remember that in that time more than 95% of the people in the known world lived in what we would call poverty according to US/Western standards of living.

I agree with you here. Many will misunderstand me because I believe strongly in the prosperity of the Word and I live it also. But money means absolutely nothing to me. I also know that the poorest of America are typically better off than those of other countries.

But again, money and comfort mean nothing to me. My need is to see the Kingdom of God reach it's fullness. The so called needs of my life are God's responsibility. I have found that He is perfectly capable of taking care of me and my family and He actually does it at a much higher level than I would on my own.

And these are the things God has promised to meet for us, needs. Not wants or wishes and luxury. If we have food, clothing, and shelter we have our needs being met.

Again, this is where I will differ with most people because my focus is not comfort or luxury. However, I expect to fly first class, I expect to eat in nice restaurants (and by the way I am a big tipper), I expect my house to be nice, and I expect to have nice clothes.

Not because of comfort, but because I am a child of the King created to manifest His glory. Which is the better testimony of an Almighty God, driving around in a BMW and being debt free or driving around in a Yugo held together by Christian bumper stickers?

You see, I don't want the God of the Muslims because their god is full of hate and bondage. I don't want the god of the JW because their god doesn't do anything anymore. Why should the world want the God of most born again Christians when the divorce rate is higher within the church than without, Christians can't pay their bills, the number of Christians on anti-depressants is just about the same as non-Christians?

Why is it that waiter/waitresses don't want to wait on Christians? THEY'RE BROKE AND TIGHT! This is not my God. My God is rich, He blesses, and He is not afraid to show it.

I agree that God will often times reward people financially as they give cheerfully to the kingdom in order for them to be a conduit of financial blessing to various works.

It's not a "reward" it's a result. God will not allow His Word to return to Him void. God has bond Himself to His Word. What you believe you will submit to and according to James 4 God give more grace to the humble, submit yourself therefore!

and use your time of abundance to bless the kingdom.

I like the way you word that as though...your time will come to an end and you'll see what I'm talking about.

My time isn't spent blessing the Kingdom, my life is spent on it.

[QUOTE]But we can't project our gifts onto other people and expect them to be like us. It's not so much a matter of faith as much as it is a matter of place.[\QUOTE]

What we are talking about is faith not gifts. While I do believe there is a gift for finances, that is not what we are talking about. Faith receives what grace has provided. We receive from the Lord according to our faith and place has nothing to do with it.

There is nothing in the Word that tells you that you have to be poor. If a person applies the Word, lives right, and operates in faith they will experience increase.

...that I have several people blessed w/your gift of wealth in my church when I start it.

You'll only have it if you teach it. Faith comes by hearing the Word. If the Word they hear is a Word that some will and some won't - they will accept that they can't.

Enjoyable conversation!

[A_PoMo]

You're right, it is an enjoyable conversation. But I'm not sure we can continue because we don't agree on the right way to divide the word. It's difficult to discuss Scripture when we can't agree on the rules. I think you've come up with some pretty novel interpretations. But I think a better explanation is that it's a result of God's gifting in your life and not a result of your faith. I sincerely and deeply appreciate your heart for God and for the work of God. I wish more people felt like you do in that regard. You'd be hard pressed to tell a believer in Darfur or the ghetto of Mexico city that it's their fault that they're poor and that if they'll just believe God that they'll be rich. I think it's better to look at wealth as part of the great equalizing force of the HS as rich people give to poor people and we demonstrate to the world the revolution of the kingdom of God that we are all equal and God is no respector of persons. I agree, the purpose of God is not salvation, it's God's glory. The Calvinists got that part right. God is glorified in our weakness, not our strength.

[gloryseeker]

I think your other post summed it up that we really agree more than we disagree. It think as you stated here, the problem is in the rules of interpretations that we use.

Part of it is that I am misunderstood because I am willing to throw my faith out into the impossible realms. Of what you said in this post I have to address one area.

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

You'd be hard pressed to tell a believer in Darfur or the ghetto of Mexico city that it's their fault that they're poor and that if they'll just believe God that they'll be rich.

A couple of things. It's not a "fault" issue. Someone in a poor country is subject to the economic conditions of that country until they get a revelation of the Word. When they separate themselves from the system that is impoverishing their nation and operate in God's system they can rise above that. Not that they will be a Bill Gates, but where they will have all sufficiency in all things.

I don't preach a "rich" gospel, I preach a "more than enough" gospel. How much is enough? Well, how much do you want to expand the gospel?

Finally, I am not hard pressed to do what you stated. In August I preached three Pastor conference in the remote areas of India. Around 1,000 Pastors in total. I preached out of Col 3:


Col 3:1-2
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (KJV)

Where's your thinking, above or on the earth?

I've preached similar messages in Kenya, Uganda, Russia, Bangladesh, China, Thailand, and Poland. I believe that the Word is not subject to the conditions of the earth. The conditions of the earth are subject to the Word.


2 Cor 4:18
18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. (NKJ)

[A_PoMo]

Like I said, if we can't agree on the rules then trying to discuss authorial intent is tough to accomplish in any sort of cogent way. However, I do applaud you for your obvious passion for the kingdom and I thank God for his obvious blessings on you. I am a man of means as well but have found my wealth to be a burden rather than a blessing and am actively trying to divest myself of my stuff including my Benz and my Jag. As soon as this durned housing market recovers I'm going to sell my properties and happily join the ranks of the downwardly mobile. I just find material wealth to be a drag on my life and not a blessing because I have come to the conclusion that it is worth nothing. Even so, while I don't agree with your hermeneutics I do agree in principle with your overall vision and am thankful that you have chosen to use your wealth to help people rather than for more selfish purposes. That's a good thing.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I am a man of means as well but have found my wealth to be a burden rather than a blessing and am actively trying to divest myself of my stuff including my Benz and my Jag.

Feel free to transfer your assets to me. I am not only a giver, but I am a receiver

As soon as this durned housing market recovers I'm going to sell my properties and happily join the ranks of the downwardly mobile. I just find material wealth to be a drag on my life and not a blessing because I have come to the conclusion that it is worth nothing.

You are right that money is worth nothing, this is why I can easily give. Just realize that while wealth is a drag, poverty is a greater drag. The key is not having or not having money. The key is what you are doing with what you have.

Most who have money, their money is their security thus becoming a burden to maintain. Let go of the money (not by going broke) but by not allowing it to control you. I mentioned in another post that which brings more glory, my driving a BMW or a Yugo. In reality I drive a 2003 Buick Regal. It's a nice car, but cars are only a tool. I am not defined by it.

I would rather drive a nice $20K car and put $20K into the Kingdom than drive a $40K car. I have a credit card with a $50K line of credit, but I am not indebted to it.

From a Kingdom standpoint. I want to give a minimum of 51% of my gross income into the Kingdom. So, from a Kingdom standpoint, is it better for me to make $30K, $100K, or $10 million a year? It is obvious that the more I make the better it is for the Kingdom.

The problem is most people can't do what I am doing because of the control of money, which is where the drag is. You see, if you are not free with money the problem is not the money the problem is the heart, which means you won't be free without money.

The reality is if I was making $10 million a year and putting $5.1 million into the Kingdom, I would catch slack from religious people as to why I owned nice things. It's not the money it's the heart. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I guarantee you that the majority of the advocates of the poor who have posted in these threads give very little to the poor. I however help the poor a lot. Which is better for the poor, for me to be broke like them or for me to have more than enough to help them? The answer is obvious.

What I am saying to you is, don't be so quick to try and sell everything and be poor, just be willing to use what you have for the Kingdom. If the Lord wants you to sell it, sell it. If the Lord wants you to sow it, sow it. Be led by the Spirit.

[A_PoMo]

Dude, I'm w/ya. Don't think I'm advocating poverty. Far from it. I want to eradicate poverty. But, I also want to eradicate this whole idea of the need for stuff. Why stop at 51%? Give 99%. Set a reasonable income for yourself, say $50-75,000 a year and live w/in that and give the rest away. I never said I was going to be poor, just downwardly mobile. Believe me, I'll have a warm, dry, safe place to live, reliable vehicles, good food, a big TV w/cable, clean clothes to wear, etc... However, even w/all that I'm still living in luxury compared to the rest of the world. But I still am making a visible statement against consumerism and materialism that I believe is a spiritual cancer in our culture as my lifestyle is measurably less self-indulgent that the culture around me, even church culture. Each of us has a calling and a gifting. Some of us are called to give and sow our money and we are gifted (blessed) w/the means to do so. Others of us are called to give and sow ourselves and we are gifted to do so. For me the material wealth is getting in the way of me giving myself in ministry due to the time and energy it takes to pay for and maintain it. Thus, I make the choice to let it go in order to better pursue my calling. This is easy for me to do since I no longer place any value (other than some sentimental value on certain things) on the stuff. I believe this is the attitude Christ want us to have relative to wealth.

[bkstokes]

One of the authors in Proverbs states it well (and I paraphrase). Lord don't let me be poor or wealthy.