Answer to charges that Names were used without consent

[PastorD]

Originally Posted by Todd

WOW!!! Before we jump straight to the 'you say he is worthless, and someone is lying' please consider that there is a possibility that all may be truthful. If some originally said OK to inclusion on the list then withdrew, the time element comes into play, when did the 7 talk to them? and when did Rev. Haney speak to them? It seems a little harsh and assuming to jump WWAAYY to an extreme like this.

Todd....being that this is your 1st post (congratulations), you have a lot of catching up to do in reading past posts and threads. The Dean knows who I am and knows what I am saying. No extreme's....I was just using his words to describe the other side of the coin.

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

http://apostolicsummit.blogspot.com/...alot-of-q.html

I have nothing against the WPF organizers, but I know for a fact there were men on the list that did not give their consent to publish their names as such. To serve on an elders council is not the same as having your name published as the leaders of an organization who's stated goals are to provide a preferred (different) alternative to the UPC.

Men who have spent a lifetime building ministerial reputations should have a say in whether or not they get published in an explosive mailout to thousands of ministers across the UPC.

Again, political double speak.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I have nothing against the WPF organizers, but I know for a fact there were men on the list that did not give their consent to publish their names as such. To serve on an elders council is not the same as having your name published as the leaders of an organization who's stated goals are to provide a preferred (different) alternative to the UPC.

Men who have spent a lifetime building ministerial reputations should have a say in whether or not they get published in an explosive mailout to thousands of ministers across the UPC.

Again, political double speak.

Unless you are one of those 3 men..............it was very evident that all of the men had been contacted and had initially agreed to serve as part of the General Council, but later changed their minds, after the list was printed and after the names were made accessible by someone who accessed their website while it was under construction prior to it's official launch.

[NW Pastor]

Only three? Where they going to again check with said 3 at the time of the much ballyhood "official launch"? Apparently someone did not clearly indicate to these men what it actually meant to be a member of the General Council, or they would have not protested to see their names in print.

What if the site were not supposedly been "hacked"? These men would have been included in the great mailout apparently without their knowledge that such a thing was happening. Good thing they were given a heads up.

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Unless you are one of those 3 men..............it was very evident that all of the men had been contacted and had initially agreed to serve as part of the General Council, but later changed their minds, after the list was printed and after the names were made accessible by someone who accessed their website while it was under construction prior to it's official launch.

You seem to be very close to this situation. Do you know of any Elders or Committee members who did not make the trip to Tulsa?

If they cant be honest in their intent, or ethical in their approach, how can you believe the words that these men who have formed the WPF say?

Using the UPCI mailing list to invite the entire ministerial body to a "Pre-Conceived, Foregone Conclusion, Apostolic Summit" so you can lure them away from the UPCI is not in any way ethical. Furthermore, one must consider that the "Tulsa Six" are for the most part intelligent men who have served the UPCI in some official capacity at one time or another. Whether or not they studied the UPCI bylaws before deciding to cherry pick from it's membership roster is irrelevant, other than to say that these men most definitely knew beforehand that the UPCI does not allow memberships in organizations such as the one they are forming. In other words, they knew beforehand that all who join them must choose between them or the UPCI, yet they do not overtly state this fact. Rather, they seem to imply that the onus is on the UPCI to offer reciprocity, despite the longstanding prohibition of such associations.

If history has taught us anything – both in the Church and in the secular world – it has taught us that just because someone can move an audience with great oratory does not mean that the positions they espouse are right.

[Hoovie]

“Will the WPF allow men who are not members of the organization to preach at WPF meetings?” and “Will the WPF endorse meetings sponsored by men who are not members of WPF?”, to which Bro. Booker answered basically that if they believe the Apostolic message and Acts 2:38 and the doctrine, then yes, we will allow them to speak at our meetings, even if they are not WPF. And, we will support meetings which are sponsored by men who are not WPF, if they believe the same message.

It is inspiring to know that they are open to attending UPCI North American Youth Congress and having A M preach for them.

[Felicity]

So who are we to believe?

[Dora]

I just wonder why the WPF guys are considered to be so TRUTHFUL and that they are the ones who are presenting the "FACTS." Do ya think that Bishop Haney and Bro. Mallory and Bro. Bernard are all liars? They obviously have heard firsthand from ministers who had their names added to the WPF list without their permission.

Perhaps these guys didn't expect the WPF to post the list prematurely.

It's just very interesting to see how certain people's loyalties are being revealed. AMAZING. Folks who previously professed unerring allegiance to the UPCI are now ardently defending the actions of the WPF.

If you think they are such great guys, go on and join up. What doth hinder???

I'm sure the fact that NW was defeated in the CA district vote for DS is no big deal. Has nothing to do with his decision to form his own organization. Is he one of the top dogs in the new org? There really can't be any significant correlation there...no way.

So are we questioning the truthfulness of the ministers who stated that they didn't want their names to be included on the list. If the WPF is stating that no ministers names were included on the list who did not give permission for their names to be used, then that makes the "no permission granted Ministers" liars.

It's all over the place. The WPF is whitewashing their actions, presenting this action as if RES.4 was the main issue when it is a known fact, especially in the Western District that these guys have been disgruntled and nit-picking and back biting of their fellow Pentecostal Brethren to the point of questioning their salvation and whether or not their saints are saved.

I'm sorry, but promoting disunity between families and fellow Christians is just WRONG! The Holy Ghost is a UNIFYING FORCE. It is NOT a force used to place a wedge between friendships and families.

Any org that promotes this kind of separation, raises a HUGE red flag to me - KOOL-AID DRINKERS is what comes to mind. Separate yourselves to the point where nobody else is heaven bound. Separate yourselves because you are on a higher holiness plain than your family members or fellow Pentecostal friends. Hogwash!

The future will prove the true motives and agenda of this new org.

[RevBuddy]

If we take the rationalizations from the Tulsa Apologists, then these men should be elevated to sainthood...without further thought...they are, in the Apologists' opinion, without fault, without any spot or blemish...they are the ultimate Apostles of today, leading the way to an apostolic utopian fellowsh.., er, organization that will reestablish the values, mores and truths, heretofor...ignored by the unwashed...

But, I fear, the truth lies somewhere short of the Apologists' assessment...it certainly does for the rest of us...po' folks...all us with the human frailties and foibles...