RIP: The Neutralizing of Preaching Personalities

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

...
Doubtless there are many others that you could add to the list but they had one thing in common… they are all ‘preachers’ who are known by their unique personalities. It was the combination of the ‘preaching’ and personality that made them so effective!
...
My question is one that perhaps only time can answer;
* Can this generation ever again lay aside our carnal opinions and allow ‘preaching’ personalities to rise up and make a difference among the Church and the world we’re called to reach?

* Have we reached the point that our fleshly reasoning has forever neutralized preaching personalities?

* Can this generation open their hearts to new faces of those 'John the Baptist-esque' ministries that come looking outdated and disheveled to our keenly 'religious' eyes.

* Have our attitudes towards the ministry become so jaded that we refuse to allow room for ‘preaching’ personalities into our sphere of influence?

I never had the opportunity to hear Bishop Morris Golder or Joe Duke... I have read two books about Verbal Bean (awesome preacher)

a) it is unlikely, as the recent generation of "preachers" have adapted themselves to become what "they" feel would most effectively make themselves marketable in as many pulpits as possible (the clone preachers).... it would be interesting to find out how many are fearful of stepping into the ministry style they have been called into for fear of being unpopular...

unfortunately, i personally feel that the days of "deep, deep" teaching ministries has passed in favor of the "feel-happy" surface messages that are all so common now days.... i long for the days when preachers weren't afraid of getting in people's business if God prompted them to teach/preach a "tough" message.... some old-time preachers can share powerful messages that make me realize how far I still have to go as a Christian...

b) once again, unlikely.... some churches have unknowingly become preacher-killers.... church folk have learned they can place their stamp of approval on the preachers they "like" by preaching with some preachers and yet sitting down on anyone who may not fit their idea of a good preacher.... the ole' fashioned "starve em out" strategy.... and noone here can deny it because we have all seen it happen, small churches and big churches alike....

c) the fact that most Church folks have established a "ministry box" of expectations would make it difficult for one to come in and shake the boat.... especially if they were young and didn't have the backing of some "big folks" behind them....

this post isn't as eloquent as what I would have wanted, but it is kinda face value of what immediately came to mind.... sorry if its a bit rambling....

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

You know, I get so sick of this type of crud being posted by those who miss the "good ole days".

Truth is, there are many who have "guts" nowadays, and you can't stand them because they don't fit exactly into your ideology. Let someone stand and speak truthfully against a plague of legalism in our movement (at the risk of personal harm), and you would blast them from here to kingdom come.

Get real Steadfast! You don't want some truths to be spoken.
Don't cry for truth and then slap the messenger in the face when he delivers it (figuratively speaking).

It is beyond me why we cater to personality so much anyway.

While your post is surprisingly aggressive I don't mind engaging in a reply. First of all, I don't find it 'crud' at all but a genuine question that deserves an answer. Mine is not a quest of 'personality' but a question of what happens after men like Mahaney and Arnold pass off the scene.

Perhaps I'm not being clear in my sentiment here so I'll try again: I'm not so much speaking of 'catering to a personality' as I am speaking about the personality and traits of their particular ministry.

You seem to imply that I'm searching for the 'good old days' and nothing could be further from the truth. My pursuit is for the ability of young men to have the freedom to stand up with ministries of...
Conviction similar to O. R. Fauss.
Faith similar to that of Billy Cole.
Revelatory insight similar to Jeff Arnold.

You say that many have the 'guts' but they don't fit into my 'ideology'. First of all, perhaps you should tell us all what my ideology is! I'm relatively sure you don't know much about me but I'll allow you the latitude of elucidation should you so wish to try. The truth is that I'm more accepting of various ministries than most people I know. I want ministries to take on personality and for young men to find their niche' in the anointing.

I've encouraged many young men to pursue ministries that aren't 'popular' and tried to give them the courage to be what God chose them to be. In fact, I just finished a great revival with a young man whose Pastor asked him to find another Pastor because 'I don't believe much in those Gifts of the Spirit'. In that he was being used in an area his previous Pastor wasn't comfortable in he was asked to find someone else! By the time he got to me he was crushed and almost beyond repair. He felt an intimidation that following his ministry would disqualify him from any acceptance. That is a shame of the highest proportions!

Additionally, I marvel at how quickly you run back to the 'plague of legalism' aspect. Unfortunately, that only further makes my point in this whole thread! Could someone like a Verbal Bean get up and preach true holiness inside and out to this generation without yours being the prevailing attitude of society that now shouts "Legalism!" instead of "I repent!"

No, I'm not intimidated by the shouts of 'legalism' because, frankly, I think it's the 'abracadbra' magic word that too many use to exempt themselves from the need to listen to the very preachers I'm speaking of. It's not a matter of 'blasting' those who preach against what you call 'legalism'... I simply disregard those among them who shout 'legalism' too quickly as individuals who wish to exempt themselves from the parts of truth they no longer want.

How you aquired your specfic opinion in that regards is foreign to me in that there is virtually nothing said about standards on this entire thread. Additionally, I find it strange that you would say...

Get real Steadfast! You don't want some truths to be spoken.
Don't cry for truth and then slap the messenger in the face when he delivers it (figuratively speaking).

I want ALL truth to be spoken (without exemptions) and have, in no instance, slapped any 'messenger' in the face (figuratively or otherwise). Perhaps you just misread my postings on this thread... I'm fighting FOR young, upcoming preachers to have the freedom to develop ministries with personality without the fear of someone crying things like... well... legalism... for example.

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Steadfast, I am convinced that the desires of the masses do not affect one whit God's raising up of preachers of righteousness.

But those carnal desires DO affect whether an individual will receive the word of God from the one He sends to speak it.

Jesus asked the people regarding John the Baptist - "What did you go out to see? A man clothed in effeminate ("soft") clothing?"

Ezekiel had a similar problem. God told him that he was like a neat musical performer or beautiful instrument to the people - they loved to come hear his preaching but they did not RECEIVE IT INTO THEIR HEARTS. It was entertainment for them.

Eventually, the carnal reach a point where they are no longer entertained by righteous preaching and teaching. The preaching becomes an irritation to them. Finally they turn on the source of that irritation, and reject it, scoff, mock, and if possible persecute.

Jesus had the same issue - crowds came to hear him, including the scribes and Pharisees and that bunch. They found him somewhat of a spectacle. Then they got upset with him. Then they tried to turn people away from him.

Then they killed him.

Now, does the MAJORITY of the visible church world today have a heart to receive whomever God sends?

I think in general we have become selfish, so that we have itching ears. Not merely for doctrinal things that scratch our itches, but for the personalities themselves.

People want a smiley Joel Osteen. They want to hear all about the Sugar Daddy in the sky bending over backwards to bless them in the middle of all their carnality and sin.

They sure don't want to hear about the HOLY one, the JUDGE, and the PURIFIER of the church...

(Speaking in general terms here, just my personal observations.)

BUT I also know that God knows the sins of the people, and sends a Remedy in the form of men of God who preach as though they were hired directly by God and not man, whose paycheck comes straight from God and not a board or Sister Super-tither, who fear no man but God only, and who shun not to declare the whole counsel of God...

Who preach to those who need to hear God's word, whether they want to hear it or not...

God, I believe, sometimes sends preachers who are exactly what people "can't stand" to force them to deny themselves and receive truth for TRUTH'S sake, and not because "the preacher was so nice" or because of any kind of personal pleasure they may have gotten out if it.

Jesus "had no beauty that we should desire him."

John was a wild man, to all appearances.

Paul apparently had a speech impediment of some kind, he certainly had no "powerful preacher persona" or personal charisma... his "bodily presence is weak" they said...

Peter was an "ignorant, unlearned, Galillean fisherman"...

Elisha was bald in a culture that valued a full head of hair and looked upon baldness as nearly a curse...

David was a nobody in the eyes of the carnal...

On and on it goes... God chooses that which is despised by the world and the worldlings to get His job done.

And in the final analysis, it doesn't matter whether anhyone receives the man of God or not, he is commissioned to proclaim the Message of the King. Those who reject that message have their own judgement to deal with. The preacher is not sent to make anyone agree with anything, but simply to SPEAK THE TRUTH.

A preacher is a messenger, nothing more. And therefore, it doesn't matter what anyone "thinks" about his message or his delivery, he doesn't work for them.

Excellent.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I enjoy the colorful personalities ... Stoneking included ... The prophets in OT were a colorful bunch too .... John the Baptist was a pariah ....

Actually I've always had a dream of publishing a brilliant and avante garde coffee table book with pictures and bios of the personalities among us ...

It would be entitled ... The Colorful Personalities of Pentecost

I think God will use whomever for His Glory.

Steadfast ... wax nostalgic ... but God is God and he will raise men ... at this hour to do His bidding.

Alicea... write the book. It's needed. I'll buy the first copy!

I do believe that God is raising up men but, if we're not careful, our preconceived ideas of what they should be can short circuit good ministries.

I Pastor many 'Pastors Kids' and one of them lamented to me that he was never called to preach but expected to do so. He made a statement that haunts me to this day - especially with PK's - when he said, "Pastor, there's nothing heavier than the weight of an expectation."

I fear that we have a lot of young preachers, called of God for valuable reasons, who will never develop because of the 'weight of an expectation' this generation puts on them.

Originally Posted by Malvaro

I never had the opportunity to hear Bishop Morris Golder or Joe Duke... I have read two books about Verbal Bean (awesome preacher)

a) it is unlikely, as the recent generation of "preachers" have adapted themselves to become what "they" feel would most effectively make themselves marketable in as many pulpits as possible (the clone preachers).... it would be interesting to find out how many are fearful of stepping into the ministry style they have been called into for fear of being unpopular...

unfortunately, i personally feel that the days of "deep, deep" teaching ministries has passed in favor of the "feel-happy" surface messages that are all so common now days.... i long for the days when preachers weren't afraid of getting in people's business if God prompted them to teach/preach a "tough" message.... some old-time preachers can share powerful messages that make me realize how far I still have to go as a Christian...

b) once again, unlikely.... some churches have unknowingly become preacher-killers.... church folk have learned they can place their stamp of approval on the preachers they "like" by preaching with some preachers and yet sitting down on anyone who may not fit their idea of a good preacher.... the ole' fashioned "starve em out" strategy.... and noone here can deny it because we have all seen it happen, small churches and big churches alike....

c) the fact that most Church folks have established a "ministry box" of expectations would make it difficult for one to come in and shake the boat.... especially if they were young and didn't have the backing of some "big folks" behind them....

this post isn't as eloquent as what I would have wanted, but it is kinda face value of what immediately came to mind.... sorry if its a bit rambling....

Nothing wrong with the post... and a lot right with it.

For myself, it's not necessarily that I rebel against the preached WORD- it's the attitude in which it is delivered that I rebel against sometimes.

Men like Bro.Arnold do not appeal to me. I do not respond well to brashness and crass language- in fact, my stomach knots up when I hear it. I believe it can be attributed to my up-bringing. My father was a soft spoken man, and I never heard him speak in a crass or loud manner, never. He never made fun of anybody in the church, nor did he stoop to 'lambasting' other religious movements in the pulpit. That was not his 'style'. My pastor also, was a kind and compassionate, soft spoken man. Both of these men were strong conservatives and preached it HARD and narrow, but they did it with kindness and love in their hearts. Therefore, having not heard it in my home, nor in my home church- It never appealed to me in the pulpit.

I do, however, think highly of men like those afore mentioned- they are definately icons of Pentecost, and they DO win the lost. And that's what it's all about.

We all have our place in the Kingdom.

Originally Posted by Annie

For myself, it's not necessarily that I rebel against the preached WORD- it's the attitude in which it is delivered that I rebel against sometimes.

Men like Bro.Arnold do not appeal to me. I do not respond well to brashness and crass language- in fact, my stomach knots up when I hear it. I believe it can be attributed to my up-bringing. My father was a soft spoken man, and I never heard him speak in a crass or loud manner, never. He never made fun of anybody in the church, nor did he stoop to 'lambasting' other religious movements in the pulpit. That was not his 'style'. My pastor also, was a kind and compassionate, soft spoken man. Both of these men were strong conservatives and preached it HARD and narrow, but they did it with kindness and love in their hearts. Therefore, having not heard it in my home, nor in my home church- It never appealed to me in the pulpit.

I do, however, think highly of men like those afore mentioned- they are definately icons of Pentecost, and they DO win the lost. And that's what it's all about.

We all have our place in the Kingdom.

I think that is a balanced view. Thanks!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Alicea... write the book. It's needed. I'll buy the first copy!

I do believe that God is raising up men but, if we're not careful, our preconceived ideas of what they should be can short circuit good ministries.

I Pastor many 'Pastors Kids' and one of them lamented to me that he was never called to preach but expected to do so. He made a statement that haunts me to this day - especially with PK's - when he said, "Pastor, there's nothing heavier than the weight of an expectation."

I fear that we have a lot of young preachers, called of God for valuable reasons, who will never develop because of the 'weight of an expectation' this generation puts on them.

Nothing wrong with the post... and a lot right with it.

I can echo the word's of this PK ... Expectation can be a heavy burden .... yet I have learned that God has given me gifts that perhaps may not be what others expected ... but I will use them for the Glory of my King.

The Body needs to start exploring the many facets of ministry .... IMHO

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

While your post is surprisingly aggressive I don't mind engaging in a reply. First of all, I don't find it 'crud' at all but a genuine question that deserves an answer. Mine is not a quest of 'personality' but a question of what happens after men like Mahaney and Arnold pass off the scene.

Perhaps I'm not being clear in my sentiment here so I'll try again: I'm not so much speaking of 'catering to a personality' as I am speaking about the personality and traits of their particular ministry.

You seem to imply that I'm searching for the 'good old days' and nothing could be further from the truth. My pursuit is for the ability of young men to have the freedom to stand up with ministries of...
Conviction similar to O. R. Fauss.
Faith similar to that of Billy Cole.
Revelatory insight similar to Jeff Arnold.

You say that many have the 'guts' but they don't fit into my 'ideology'. First of all, perhaps you should tell us all what my ideology is! I'm relatively sure you don't know much about me but I'll allow you the latitude of elucidation should you so wish to try. The truth is that I'm more accepting of various ministries than most people I know. I want ministries to take on personality and for young men to find their niche' in the anointing.

I've encouraged many young men to pursue ministries that aren't 'popular' and tried to give them the courage to be what God chose them to be. In fact, I just finished a great revival with a young man whose Pastor asked him to find another Pastor because 'I don't believe much in those Gifts of the Spirit'. In that he was being used in an area his previous Pastor wasn't comfortable in he was asked to find someone else! By the time he got to me he was crushed and almost beyond repair. He felt an intimidation that following his ministry would disqualify him from any acceptance. That is a shame of the highest proportions!

Additionally, I marvel at how quickly you run back to the 'plague of legalism' aspect. Unfortunately, that only further makes my point in this whole thread! Could someone like a Verbal Bean get up and preach true holiness inside and out to this generation without yours being the prevailing attitude of society that now shouts "Legalism!" instead of "I repent!"

No, I'm not intimidated by the shouts of 'legalism' because, frankly, I think it's the 'abracadbra' magic word that too many use to exempt themselves from the need to listen to the very preachers I'm speaking of. It's not a matter of 'blasting' those who preach against what you call 'legalism'... I simply disregard those among them who shout 'legalism' too quickly as individuals who wish to exempt themselves from the parts of truth they no longer want.

How you aquired your specfic opinion in that regards is foreign to me in that there is virtually nothing said about standards on this entire thread. Additionally, I find it strange that you would say...

I want ALL truth to be spoken (without exemptions) and have, in no instance, slapped any 'messenger' in the face (figuratively or otherwise). Perhaps you just misread my postings on this thread... I'm fighting FOR young, upcoming preachers to have the freedom to develop ministries with personality without the fear of someone crying things like... well... legalism... for example.

You are correct in saying we do not know each other. I am operating from a perspective gleaned from discussions on NFCF and Wordshare. There is this constant drum beating regarding a supposed "lack of leadership" among the younger generation. Far too often I find it is because some won't get out of the way and let them. They are guilted into inactivity.

Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Would you be accomodating of a young minister developing a television ministry?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

You are correct in saying we do not know each other. I am operating from a perspective gleaned from discussions on NFCF and Wordshare. There is this constant drum beating regarding a supposed "lack of leadership" among the younger generation. Far too often I find it is because some won't get out of the way and let them. They are guilted into inactivity.

Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Would you be accomodating of a young minister developing a television ministry?

PP, you know this would violate a deeply held personal conviction.

The Elder isn't speaking of ministries that violate principle or conviction.

This is an unfair example.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I can echo the word's of this PK ... Expectation can be a heavy burden .... yet I have learned that God has given me gifts that perhaps may not be what others expected ... but I will use them for the Glory of my King.

The Body needs to start exploring the many facets of ministry .... IMHO

A sad fact, Dan: I have been the Pastor to many 'PK's'... At one point I had 12 different Pastor's Kids in my Church at one time and all but THREE I prayed through from a backslidden condition.

Their circumstances are unique and, in my own opinion, we don't do enough to equip them to face those circumstances.

The man I spoke of earlier (who spoke of the weight of an expectation) went on to Pastor a Church, struggled with keeping it afloat, lost his wife to another man and saw his family torn apart. We healed him back into a desire to be used of God but NOT back into a preaching ministry. It was then, as a broken young man, that he spoke to me about the horrible weight of an expectation.

The weight of an expectation is a horrible thing to put on individuals that are not 'called' to the thing we 'expect' of them.