Light doctrine

[Amanah]

Something I'm mulling over this morning is the CACI teaching that the 1st resurrection immortals are those who've obeyed acts 2:38 along with commandments and festivals because they are the only ones qualified to govern in the millennial reign. The Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance to be resurrected.

Then in the 2nd resurrection there are others who are resurrected but not to Immortality.

Where does that place the Hebrews 11 heros of the faith? Hebrews 11:16 says He has prepared for them a city.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Something I'm mulling over this morning is the CACI teaching that the 1st resurrection immortals are those who've obeyed acts 2:38 along with commandments and festivals because they are the only ones qualified to govern in the millennial reign. The Holy Ghost is the earnest of our inheritance to be resurrected.

Then in the 2nd resurrection there are others who are resurrected but not to Immortality.

Where does that place the Hebrews 11 heros of the faith?

Good point, but I would gather they stick Abraham, Isaac, Abel, and Enoch in the first resurrection. To be consistent. It would be a bummer if these individuals who did the lion share of the heavy lifting get stuck eating leaves with the Goyim.

[coksiw]

The nations in the millennium is a interesting question. Some have turned to amillennialism precisely because they can't answer that question, saying that the "return of Christ being the final judgment is cleaner."

What it is at least clear from the Biblical standpoint is that there is a judgment of the nations (the day of the Lord), and the judgment of individuals (Jhn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

The nations in the millennium is a interesting question. Some have turned to amillennialism precisely because they can't answer that question, saying that the "return of Christ being the final judgment is cleaner."

What it is at least clear from the Biblical standpoint is that there is a judgment of the nations (the day of the Lord), and the judgment of individuals (Jhn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2)

Revelation 20:4-8 KJV
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Here we have the first resurrection, which is the overcoming saints of God, the elect of God, the church of God, the "144,000 of the 12 tribes" and the "great multitude which no man can number who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb". That is to say, redeemed new covenant Israel, who having survived the persecutions of the Beast and the dragon are now victorious (just as in Daniel). As we saw in Isaiah, they are destined to be God's Witnesses and the nations are destined to obey God, being taught by Zion. In Revelation, we see their overcoming the tyranny of the Beast and enjoying the first resurrection, and "reigning".

Then, after the period called "the thousand years", there are these nations in the four quarters of the earth who are deceived by the serpent power to make war against God and His saints. It is CLEAR that these "nations" who are deceived to make war against the camp of the saints (the church) are NOT themselves part of the first resurrection. Therefore it necessarily follows that there are people simultaneously existing with the first resurrection overcomers. Two people groups - one resurrected, one clearly not because they are deceived and then destroyed by Divine intervention.

So that there are two distinct groups during the millennium seems inescapable to me. Regardless of how a person understands the millennium, whether premil, postmil, or amil, there is no denying that there are two contemporaneous groups of people, one called the first resurrection, and the other contributing to those who finally get deceived into making war against the first group.

[Esaias]

(So that there are two distinct groups during the millennium seems inescapable to me. Regardless of how a person understands the millennium, whether premil, postmil, or amil, there is no denying that there are two contemporaneous groups of people, one called the first resurrection, and the other contributing to those who finally get deceived into making war against the first group.)

From a premillennial perspective, the only way I see that this can be, is we have the resurrected saints (the overcomers of the new covenant commonwealth of Israel), and others who were not resurrected. These are not the enemies of God who were part of the Beast system that warred against Christ, for those had already been destroyed prior to the beginning of the thousand years. They must therefore be the nations that are now the objects of God's Plan. During the millennium, however long it may last (the 1000 years being a symbolic time frame indicating a greatly extended time), the resurrected church is reigning upon the earth, and the nations that are left are walking in the Light of the Lord.

Yet the fact there is a final rebellion requires that those who participate are not resurrected yet. They are natural people who, the serpent power being unrestrained, are subject to being deceived into trying to (once again) rebel against God. Not that everyone outside the church is deceived, but that there is a general deception that occurs among these people. Which of course means they are also unregenerate. It would hardly make sense for regenerate people to be massively deceived into rebelling against God. So while the nations are learning God's ways and are subject to the rule and dominion of God through His church, it is clear there are unregenerate persons still around.

Zechariah 14:16-19 KJV
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. [18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This prophecy in Zechariah speaks of a war against the people of God, who (the enemies) are then defeated. AFTER that, all the families of the earth are to be worshipping God in Jerusalem. This is parallel to the prophecies in Isaiah where the nations go up to the Mountain of the Lord to learn of His ways. Here, there is a warning about those who fail to worship God: there is disciplinary action taken against them. This clearly implies that during this period, there are those who are unregenerate. Or at least, not entirely fully obedient. Which makes sense as this is a TEACHING phase for the other nations. The ones who fail to "go up to worship" aren't obliterated, they are chastised. The context is the nations that came against Jerusalem who are left after the destruction of Israel's enemies.

Remember, the Big Plan was for Israel to be a Witness to all nations and families. Meaning, there is a two-part phase to God's Plan: first Israel, then the rest of the nations. Currently, we are in the "God is redeeming Israel" phase, as the Gospel is going to the multitude of nations that Israel was to become. when the fullness of the nations be come in, "all Israel will be saved". More importantly, it is THUS that all Israel would be saved. Therefore, the "multitude of nations coming in" is specifically the nations of Israel. Once that occurs, once "all Israel is saved", that is, once Israel has received the redemption as a people, once it has been fulfilled, then the OTHER nations must be the focus.

This is because the Plan is Israel ----> the nations, that is, Israel is to be the Witness to the nations. Israel must be redeemed in order to fulfill that destiny. Israel is still in the process of being redeemed, until the fullness of the (Israel) nations are come in.

This of course does not mean that people outside of "Israel" are not subjects of the Gospel message, or that they cannot enter in. When God took a nation out of Egypt He also took a "mixed multitude" with them. There were "strangers in Israel" who were subject to the Law of God just as Israel was, they learned of God and followed Him. But that did not obviate the Plan for Israel to be God's Witnesses to all nations, for even though there were strangers with Israel in Deuteronomy, the commission to the other nations was still declared.

Revelation 20:7-15 KJV
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After that final rebellion, there is the general judgment scene. ALL the dead are before God. This is the great judgment that is mentioned throughout Scripture. Not a judgment upon various nations for various things, resulting in various temporal punishments. But a judgment upon each individual for their works. And the final disposition of each one is determined by whether or not their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. AFTER THIS EVENT there does not exist anyone who is NOT in the Book of Life. Since death and hell (the grave, hades) are destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with all sinners (transgressors), anyone left is clearly immortal. There are no "leaf munchers outside the gates" who need Divine Salad to stay alive, all people who exist at this time are immortal because there simply is no more death, period.

Now I realise this interpretation of events is premillennial, and non-premillennialists will of course disagree with what is here posted. And I also realise this interpretation may certainly raise questions (I expect it too). I myself still have some questions. But I cannot help but see "premillennialism" as what is being described here in Revelation, at least in the most basic sense of the term.

The first resurrection is distinguished and contrasted with "the rest of the dead lived not again until" after the thousand years. How do the rest of the dead live again at the end of the thousand years? By standing before God, coming OUT of "death and hell and the sea". Meaning, the rest of the dead "live again" by a very real genuine resurrection out of the grave. This however requires that the first resurrection be of the same kind, meaning, a very real resurrection "out of the grave".

Revelation 20:4-5 KJV
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If the first resurrection is simply a religious symbolic resurrection, meaning "being born again", then it is saying the rest of the dead are born again at the end of this period. But we know that is not true, because the rest of the dead are judged and at least some are cast into the Lake of Fire. If on the other hand, the "rest of the dead living again" is a genuine actual resurrection, then the first must be of the same kind otherwise there is no basis for the comparison. The saints "live" BUT "the rest of the dead lived not" meaning whatever the first experienced, the second did not. UNTIL the thousand years were finished. Meaning the second DID experience what the first did at the end of the thousand years. And the only thing that EVERYONE is said to experience is resurrection from the grave, whether unto Life or unto Damnation:

John 5:28-29 KJV
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Brother Esaias, what are the questions you still have concerning this paradigm?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Does all this take place in the Middle East?

[Amanah]

So the first resurrection is the Israel of God, the church, who will teach the nations. Redeemed New Covenant Israel.

The second resurrection is the other nations? What are they called?

Then death is destroyed and everyone continues into the New Jerusalem with immortal and equal status?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Esaias, what are the questions you still have concerning this paradigm?

The most obvious (to me) is "How can a mass of people be deceived into warring against a returned Christ and an immortal resurrected Church?"

But then I visit social media or read a news headline...

I also remember the Golden Calf incident played out within about a month of God making an historically unique and quite blatant appearance, and presumably occurred under the shadow of the Fiery, Cloudy Pillar!

Other than that, I wonder about whether OT saints are included in the first resurrection/"dead in Christ" or if they would belong to the second general resurrection.

A big problem is most premillennialists have futurist and dispensationalist gar- er, baggage, that makes it near impossible for me to read their ideas seriously.

I also question how the obvious dominion mandate of the church fits in with premil eschatology. We aren't supposed to wait for the end to begin converting the nations, after all.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

So the first resurrection is the Israel of God, the church, who will teach the nations. Redeemed New Covenant Israel.

Well, we're supposed to be teaching the nations NOW. Judging (exercising actual control) seems to be a feature of the millennium.

The second resurrection is the other nations? What are they called?

The nations? It would be all the dead, whoever they were.

Then death is destroyed and everyone continues into the New Jerusalem with immortal and equal status?

"Equal status"? There has always been and always will be hierarchy in the Creation. But yes, anyone past Rev 20 must of necessity be immortal.