Initial evidence

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Papacy 3.0? 4.0? I've lost count of how many organizations over the centuries have tried to sit in Peter's chair...

Matthew 23:1-15 KJV
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. [5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, [6] And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, [7] And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. [8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. [9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. [13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I have heard it said that because the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, according to Jesus, therefore we must obey their rules.

But I can't seem to find "Moses' seat" as any kind of official position under the Sinaitic Covenant, or the Monarchy, or anywhere in the Bible. Moses was a prophet, so when did he get a throne?

Oh wait...

The scribes and Pharisees had assumed unto themselves the AUTHORITY of Moses, as if they were Moses. So, the people had to do what they were told (because the scribes and Pharisees held the power and could severely disrupt your life) as a matter of convenience, because they were City Hall and if you butt heads with City Hall you wind up nailed to a cross on Golgotha. Jesus was not affirming they had any kind of spiritual authority from God, only temporal authority that they had usurped.

We can see the proof of that in His words that followed, how they shut up the kingdom of God and were preventing people from going in. How they were sons of hell and their followers were twice the sons of hell they were. And how everything they did was, ultimately, for pride and vainglory, "to be seen of men".

There is nothing new under the sun. Since the apostles passed away (in fact, even before they passed away), there were and are today people trying to "sit in Christ's seat" and be lords over God's heritage. They set themselves up in the temple of God in the place of God, as if they were God and even above God. Like in the other thread about "trust me with your soul".

I heard a sermon many many years ago. Don't remember anything about it except the old preacher mentioned something about "Babylon, the great harlot and mother of harlots" and he mentioned something about "Babylon and all her Protestant daughters".

So many want to "be like Jesus" but don't want to do what He said.

[Amanah]

Okay. Is the UPCI leadership structure superior?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Papacy 3.0? 4.0? I've lost count of how many organizations over the centuries have tried to sit in Peter's chair...

[Amanah]

I asked meta to compare the UPCI leadership structure to Ignatius of Antioch:

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD) was an early Christian leader who wrote extensively on church governance. His leadership structure, as described in his letters, is compared to the UPCI structure below:

Ignatius' Structure:

1. Bishop (Episkopos): Primary leader, responsible for spiritual guidance and oversight.
2. Presbyters (Elders): Assist the bishop, providing counsel and support.
3. Deacons: Serve the church in practical ways, under the bishop's guidance.

UPCI Structure:

1. General Superintendent: Highest authority, overseeing the global organization.
2. General Board: Assists the General Superintendent, comprising elected officials.
3. District Superintendents: Oversee regional districts.
4. Pastors: Lead local churches.

Similarities:

- Both have a clear hierarchy
- Emphasis on spiritual guidance and oversight
- Recognition of distinct roles (bishop/presbyters/deacons in Ignatius' structure, and General Superintendent/General Board/District Superintendents/Pastors in UPCI)

Differences:

- Ignatius' structure is more localized, with a single bishop per church
- UPCI has a more centralized authority (General Superintendent) and a larger administrative hierarchy
- Ignatius' structure lacks a direct equivalent to the UPCI's General Board and District Superintendents

Ignatius' structure is often seen as a more decentralized, localized approach, while the UPCI structure is more centralized and hierarchical. However, both share similarities in recognizing distinct leadership roles and emphasizing spiritual guidance.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Matthew 23:1-15 KJV
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. [5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, [6] And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, [7] And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. [8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. [9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. [13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

I have heard it said that because the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, according to Jesus, therefore we must obey their rules.

But I can't seem to find "Moses' seat" as any kind of official position under the Sinaitic Covenant, or the Monarchy, or anywhere in the Bible. Moses was a prophet, so when did he get a throne?

Oh wait...

The scribes and Pharisees had assumed unto themselves the AUTHORITY of Moses, as if they were Moses. So, the people had to do what they were told (because the scribes and Pharisees held the power and could severely disrupt your life) as a matter of convenience, because they were City Hall and if you butt heads with City Hall you wind up nailed to a cross on Golgotha. Jesus was not affirming they had any kind of spiritual authority from God, only temporal authority that they had usurped.

We can see the proof of that in His words that followed, how they shut up the kingdom of God and were preventing people from going in. How they were sons of hell and their followers were twice the sons of hell they were. And how everything they did was, ultimately, for pride and vainglory, "to be seen of men".

There is nothing new under the sun. Since the apostles passed away (in fact, even before they passed away), there were and are today people trying to "sit in Christ's seat" and be lords over God's heritage. They set themselves up in the temple of God in the place of God, as if they were God and even above God. Like in the other thread about "trust me with your soul".

I heard a sermon many many years ago. Don't remember anything about it except the old preacher mentioned something about "Babylon, the great harlot and mother of harlots" and he mentioned something about "Babylon and all her Protestant daughters".

So many want to "be like Jesus" but don't want to do what He said.

Hence they become “Αντίχριστος” which simply means to hold the position of Christ. All claiming to be a “vicar” of Christ. One in Christ’s stead. The Pharisees since Babylon were the teachers and protectors of the law. All while working closely with the occupying government to run the people. They made themselves the mouthpiece of God. The arm of His judgement. As you posted, if you stepped out of line they would bust your head. But, they would let things slide, if for a bribe. They were in love with the position they held and made real sure to correct anyone who came against that position. In the Church epistles were are told about Diotrephes. An individual who wanted to be the first and foremost. If you didn’t agree with him you were tossed out on your ear. He ruled outside of the eldership of the Church. Therefore the Apostle John was looking forward in giving him the left foot of fellowship.

[Amanah]

Here's a comparison of the UPCI, Ignatius, and biblical structures of leadership:

*Similarities:*

- All three have a clear hierarchy
- Emphasis on spiritual guidance and oversight
- Recognition of distinct leadership roles

*Differences:*

- *Centralization:*
- UPCI: Centralized authority (General Superintendent)
- Ignatius: Decentralized, localized (single bishop per church)
- Biblical: Hybrid (apostles had authority, but local churches had autonomy)
- *Leadership Roles:*
- UPCI: General Superintendent, General Board, District Superintendents, Pastors
- Ignatius: Bishop, Presbyters (Elders), Deacons
- Biblical: Apostles, Elders (Presbyters), Deacons
- *Autonomy:*
- UPCI: Local churches have some autonomy, but ultimately accountable to the General Superintendent
- Ignatius: Local churches have significant autonomy, with the bishop providing guidance
- Biblical: Local churches have autonomy, with apostles providing guidance and oversight
- *Selection Process:*
- UPCI: Leaders are elected or appointed through a hierarchical process
- Ignatius: Leaders are appointed by the bishop or recognized by the church
- Biblical: Leaders are appointed by apostles or recognized by the church through spiritual gifts and character

*Unique Aspects:*

- UPCI: Has a formal, organized structure with a strong emphasis on hierarchy
- Ignatius: Emphasizes the importance of the bishop's role in ensuring orthodoxy and unity
- Biblical: Emphasizes the importance of spiritual gifts, character, and apostolic appointment or recognition

Keep in mind that these structures are not mutually exclusive, and elements from each can be seen in modern church governance.

[Amanah]

I apologize. This is my issue to resolve.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Okay. Is the UPCI leadership structure superior?

No.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I apologize. This is my issue to resolve.

Luke 22:25–27 Matthew 20:25–28

He said to them, the kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

The New Testament example of leadership didn't show a structure of anyone in the apostles as being the chief speaker. In Acts 15 they all gathered to discuss what had happened amongst the Gentiles. It isn't a totem pole of leadership, but a body, as in eyes, nose, mouth, hands, feet. All connected together. Anytime a portion of the body is cut off and cast away, is when that one member comes against the body. The hand saying to the foot, that it no longer needs to be part of the body. We only have One Head, that head is Jesus Christ. Men (all men) are over their own family. They are the leadership of their wife and children. They are the head of their home. The eldership works with the men as a functioning body. Ministers cannot vicariously control another man's family through the man of that family.

In the same way ministers cannot control Jesus' family as if they were Jesus Himself. We aren't Jesus, and therefore we don't lord over GOD'S heritage

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Luke 22:25–27 Matthew 20:25–28

He said to them, the kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

The New Testament example of leadership didn't show a structure of anyone in the apostles as being the chief speaker. In Acts 15 they all gathered to discuss what had happened amongst the Gentiles. It isn't a totem pole of leadership, but a body, as in eyes, nose, mouth, hands, feet. All connected together. Anytime a portion of the body is cut off and cast away, is when that one member comes against the body. The hand saying to the foot, that it no longer needs to be part of the body. We only have One Head, that head is Jesus Christ. Men (all men) are over their own family. They are the leadership of their wife and children. They are the head of their home. The eldership works with the men as a functioning body. Ministers cannot vicariously control another man's family through the man of that family.

In the same way ministers cannot control Jesus' family as if they were Jesus Himself. We aren't Jesus, and therefore we don't lord over GOD'S heritage

Absolutely right.