Mark of the Beast may be only 2 1/2 years away

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

No It would not, as what man does outside of Gods will does not please God. I they were to build another temple God would not recognize it. The people that call themselves Jews today are just another nation as our we.

I think you missed what I said:

Me: But let's say you are right about the idea that "because the Jews could not offer animal sacrifices anymore, with the destruction of the temple" therefore it marked the end of the old covenant. So what happens if, say, they rebuild a temple and start offering animal sacrifices once again? You can say "God won't recognise them" but He wasn't recognising them to begin with according to Hebrews. That is, "the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins".

You: No It would not, as what man does outside of Gods will does not please God. I they were to build another temple God would not recognize it. The people that call themselves Jews today are just another nation as our we.

I mean...?

Anyway, you didn't actually address anything I said. YOU said the old came to an end BECAUSE the temple was destroyed and they couldn't offer sacrifices anymore. You have the old covenant ending BECAUSE they could not offer sacrifices anymore.

I then stated IF that were true then if they reinstated animal sacrifices it would necessitate a reinstatement of the old covenant. If the REASON the old covenant ended was because they could not sacrifice, then what was keeping it going was their continued sacrificing. Ergo, restart the sacrifices, restart the old covenant.

Of course, the truth is the old covenant ended because GOD ENDED IT. IT was ended because it was REPLACED by a new covenant. Not because the temple was destroyed. The temple was previously destroyed by the Babylonians, did that end the old covenant? No, of course not. What was the determining factor, the operative action or event or situation that started the new covenant? It was not AD 70 and the destruction of the Temple, it was the death and resurrection of Christ!

PRIOR to Ad 70 the new covenant was in effect:

1 Corinthians 11:25 KJV
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

When did the old covenant become "old"? Prior to being "old", it was simply "the covenant". It did not become something OTHER than just "the covenant" until it became old. So when did that happen?

Hebrews 8:8,13 KJV
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Way back in Jeremiah's day, God said "I will make a new covenant". THAT is when "the covenant" became the OLD covenant. God Himself made it old when He declared He was going to make a new one.

When was it ready to vanish away? According to Paul, that which is old is by default ready to vanish away. The Sinaitic Covenant was old in Jeremiah's day, therefore it was ready to vanish away BACK THEN. The very fact that God said He would make a new covenant instantly and automatically made the Sinaitic Covenant OLD and ready to be done away with.

From Jeremiah's day until Christ's, Israel was waiting, as it were, for the new covenant to replace the old. The moment there is in fact a new covenant instituted would be the very moment the old covenant was "done away with". That new covenant was inaugurated the night of the Last Supper, the sacrifice was made that Passover, and it was ratified (verified) on the third day when Jesus rose from the dead. The presence of the operating new covenant means the old covenant is simply not operating any more.

Were people still going through the motions? Sure, just as they could go through the motions today. But it would have been pointless.

But what made it pointless was NOT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE. Rather, it was the institution of the new covenant by Christ.

[loran adkins]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think you missed what I said:

Were people still going through the motions? Sure, just as they could go through the motions today. But it would have been pointless.

But what made it pointless was NOT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE. Rather, it was the institution of the new covenant by Christ.

When Paul said in Hebrews Heb 8:13.. In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away... what was he saying? at what point in time did the old vanish away?

Just as it was pointless for the people to continue to offer sacrifices after the new covenant so shall it be if they were to build another temple. But the destruction of the temple in the first century was a significant happening. As that is what Jesus prophesied and so did I believe John, hence why I put so much on 70ad.

Jesus said "this generation shall not pass until all these things have come to pass."
At what time in history before the Generation that was living did those things that Christ prophesied happened. We want to put it all in the future because things did not happen the way we imagine it should have happened.

But I believe all things are finished and we are living in new Jerusalem which is the kingdom of God on earth. and when this body dies our soul goes immediately to be with the Lord, hence forth the saying that we never die.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

When Paul said in Hebrews Heb 8:13.. In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away... what was he saying? at what point in time did the old vanish away?

Just as it was pointless for the people to continue to offer sacrifices after the new covenant so shall it be if they were to build another temple. But the destruction of the temple in the first century was a significant happening. As that is what Jesus prophesied and so did I believe John, hence why I put so much on 70ad.

Jesus said "this generation shall not pass until all these things have come to pass."
At what time in history before the Generation that was living did those things that Christ prophesied happened. We want to put it all in the future because things did not happen the way we imagine it should have happened.

But I believe all things are finished and we are living in new Jerusalem which is the kingdom of God on earth. and when this body dies our soul goes immediately to be with the Lord, hence forth the saying that we never die.

I do believe this.

The writings in Revelation was not written to me or anyone of us, they were written for us, for our admonition. The destruction wasn't towards all of humanity, it was for the great whore (Jerusalem) who played that role very well especially with Rome. Once the Temple was destroyed so was the completion of the Old Covenant, the New which was already in play will remain the covenant for all time. That's why I believe Paul was writing that to the Hebrews, ie the old is vanishing away.

When a person dies they will meet their reward, whether that's with the Lord or alone in torment.

A couple years ago a man died in a church not too far from here, the Pastor told me while he was passing away he looked up at his Pastor and with eyes that could see beyond the mere mortality of this world said, "Pastor the chariots of fire, they're real!" And he went on to eternity.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

False, the Apostles always looked forward to Jesus glorious return in the future. Apostolic means you also await his future return of Christ.

If you are not waiting for Him, you are not Apostolic.

I would like to add,

Mark 16:17-18
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In may name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues;
v18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lays hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

If these signs are not following you, you're not even a believer.

John 4:8
"He that loveth not knowers not God, for God is love."

No Love means, you're not apostolic.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by loran adkins

When Paul said in Hebrews Heb 8:13.. In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first one old. Now that which decays and becomes old is ready to vanish away... what was he saying? at what point in time did the old vanish away?

Did you not read the very post you quoted?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I do believe this.

The writings in Revelation was not written to me or anyone of us, they were written for us, for our admonition. The destruction wasn't towards all of humanity, it was for the great whore (Jerusalem) who played that role very well especially with Rome.

So where does the Bible speak of any kind of future judgment for individuals, where they will be judged by their works? So far, Loren has stated there is none, the Bible doesn't speak of any such thing, it only speaks of the judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.

So for the rest of mankind, apart from those who experienced the destruction of Jerusalem way back when, does anyone face any kind of judgment at all? and if you say "yes", then where is the Scripture that says so?

[Amanah]

As Bro Esaias is saying

The old covenant (the law) was given to bring us to Christ. After Jesus came we had no more need of the old covenant.

Galatians 3

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.'
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then "against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

*******
The new covenant is God's law written on our hearts
Hebrews 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

********

[Amanah]

Hebrews goes on to say that judgement is after death, no mention of AD 70

Hebrews 9:27
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have of course heard the nearly ubiquitous preaching that upon death one goes to heaven or hell. Then, the preaching about the white throne judgment and all mankind being judged. I NEVER heard anyone explain how people go to heaven or hell before being judged, in spite of my numerous questions. I also never heard anyone actually lay out that there are two judgments for everyone, one at death, and one at Judgment Day.

I have however heard a standard Protestant claim that upon death the soul goes to either hell (hades) or heaven, and gets a "taste" of their future judgment. At the judgment Day the wicked in hades get tossed into Gehenna and the saints go back to heaven.

None of that ever made any sense to me.

I have heard the same thing but out of the mouths of Pentecostals. Yet, we all must agree that Apostolic Pentecostals believe in a huge amount of modified eschatologies. Brother Irvin Baxter Jr was a Pre Tribber who just placed the rapture after the tribulation. I've heard of Pentecostal purgatories, to old Sister Cheesy Cornbake looking down from heaven and praying for the congregation. People got some interesting thoughts.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I mean there were a ton of people debating everything under the sun (especially standards and eschatology). They all seem to have disappeared. I guess they just got tired? And newer apostolics don't have the time or inclination?

It just seems weird to me. I think brother Benincasa may be on to something when he mentions "the algorithm". Makes me think of the "holonet" theory, aka "dead internet theory", the idea that everybody who goes online is actually in an artificially controlled internet bubble that they are led to believe is "the whole big internet", but it's really just a containment suite for them. Everybody is in their own bubble, managed by some super computer server farm run by the DOD or the NSA or whoever.

Pretty much AOL, in fact.

Sad but true