Help! Tormented dreams

[votivesoul]

Several years ago a family came into church. One of the children, a daughter about 11 years old, came up to the altar to pray. The youth pastor and another person began praying with her. She began to cry and lament, and tremble. Then she fell to the floor as if unconscious. The people who had prayed with her claimed she had received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Someone else nearby was all ecstatic, saying something about "Slain in the Spirit!"

This young girl was then immersed, and upon coming out of the water, manifested an evil spirit, convulsing and shuddering and moaning. The pastor went over to her, put his hand on her head and said "Get out of there", and the demon left and she received the Holy Spirit, for real.

Here, this girl was demon possessed and some misinformed, undiscerning people thought she had received the Holy Spirit and was speaking in tongues. But it wasn't the case, no matter what they had originally claimed.

A few years later, she went to go out of town to visit some church friends and while there, she attended a service at the local UPCI assembly. Somehow, some people there convinced her she had an evil spirit that still needed to be cast out.

When she came back, she was all confused and hurt, and didn't understand how she could still have an evil spirit when she was already delivered at her baptism and had received the Holy Spirit. I personally reassured her that she did not have an evil spirit, and the people who had told her she did were wrong.

But the issue threw her so badly, it took nearly three years to help her get back on track, to again be able to walk with the Lord in righteousness, just as she had done before these super-spiritual dingbats deceived her into thinking things about herself that were not true.

They didn't know her personally (sound familiar???). They hadn't been observing her walk with God over the course of time (sound familiar???). They just jumped on her and scared her and nearly completely derailed her with their pseudo-spiritual garbage.

This is the kind of thing I am trying to address in this thread. We need to rise above this kind of thing, and learn how to judge righteous judgment.

[votivesoul]

Aquila,

About the "low-vibrational trauma" thing from the list you shared.

1.) Yes, I intend to keep bringing this up.

2.) It's not the only questionable item on the list, but it's certainly the one most worth noting.

Here's why:

On page 10, post #94, you claimed the following:

There is third possibility, which is the truth. As I stated I was only involved in deliverance ministry for over a year, almost two years. When I left I asked for a list of indicators of oppression. I also asked for a copy of the questionnaire that is often given. What he emailed me was this list and he wished me well and encouraged me to sick with Christ. His email didn't include the questionnaire, but I thought it was no big deal because I wasn't involved any more. So I briefly looked it over and then saved this list to Word and I've had it on a disc since then. Until now, I've assumed it was the list I remember used in conjunction with the questionnaire. Maybe it's not.

This list, you received from this Matt Burris fellow. You have stated more than once that this Matt Burris was the deliverance ministry leader. This leader clearly considers low-vibrational trauma in the human body to be a true sign of demonic oppression. But low-vibration trauma in the human body is a diagnosis made by shamanistic energy healing psychotherapists, so, where did this Matt Burris get the idea in his head that low-vibrational trauma in the human body is a sign of demonic oppression, if not from the very people who are actively involved in summoning and channeling demons as part of their approach to "energy healing"?

How does the leader of a ministry truck with that? Claiming ignorance disqualifies him from leadership. It's also a de facto confession of hypocrisy. If he, like you, didn't know what low-vibrational trauma is, but still put it on his list, then by not knowing what it is and where it comes from, he is admitting that he is propagating information about which he has no knowledge. That is more than cause for concern. That is dangerous stuff.

On the other hand, if he knows what low-vibrational trauma is and where it comes from, it's a de facto confession that he travels and trades in aspects of pagan demonology as part and parcel of his supposed deliverance ministry.

Either way you slice it, it's wrong. Google "energy healing" and then tell me that what it's supposed to cure belongs on that list? Tell me it's okay for a deliverance ministry leader to recommend low-vibrational trauma in the human body as a symptom of demonic oppression.

Playing this off as no big deal demonstrates a complete lack of concern regarding how one ministers to someone who is actually being demonized.

The ministry of the Kingdom of God is SUPPOSED to be without reproach. The ministry of the Kingdom of God is SUPPOSED to not be blamed for wrongdoing. Those who oversee ministries are SUPPOSED to be blameless, too.

It's this kind of thing that continually brings reproach and blame and makes true ministers of the Gospel of Peace look like charlatans because wolves in sheep's clothing continually make the rest of us look bad.

It has got to stop. Not calling it like it is is the same as having "dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber" (Isaiah 56:10).

Aquila, if you are still in contact with Matt Burris, I challenge you to call him up and ask him about low-vibrational trauma in the human body and how he came to believe it's an indicator of demonic oppression. Then come back here and report.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

One might also note that demonic oppression, and even possession, can have similar symptoms as various forms of mental illness.

How do you know? You've only met one person who you are certain is demonically possessed. So how do you know for yourself, empirically speaking, that what you say is true?

Or are you taking someone else's word for it?

How many people have you met that were demonically oppressed, that you could prove objectively, and not simply through some cop-out you call "discernment"?

See, you keep passing on this information like it's coming from an expert, but you've already admitted you have little experience in any of this, despite the almost two years you spent hanging around with a dubious to say the least, deliverance minister named Matt Burris.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Matthew 27:19

Just then, as Pilate was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him this message: "Leave that innocent man alone. I suffered through a terrible nightmare about him last night."

The Bible, especially the New Testament, dreams were to warn the dreamer.
Not sent by demons to torture, but from God to warn, or instruct.

Amen.

After I converted, I began having horrible nightmares. Like, in the first week. They were constant and hard to take. I even became afraid to go to sleep. I would pray before bed and beg God to protect me.

But here's what I learned over time:

One night I had a dream in which I was walking in some kind of underground corridor or cave. I was, in the dream, like a disembodied spirit. All around me, these humanoid monsters were walking about, very grotesque looking. Then, every couple of seconds, I was shown some kind of pit, an endless black hole, and a voice would speak to me and invite me to come enjoy the abyss.

As the dream came to an end, something smacked my face and I woke up just as my head was thrust over to the side. At first, I wanted to pray and seek God for help and protection. But instead, being inspired by the Holy Spirit, I prayed and asked God what He was intending for me to understand by allowing me to have that dream. Right after I prayed, He called to mind a part of the dream. One of the monsters was actually an actor who was playing a character on a television show I enjoyed watching, but felt convicted about because of its content, but wasn't willing to submit to the Spirit's work in my life.

So I understood in that moment that refusing to yield to the inner conviction of the Holy Spirit in my life was endangering me, and that I was going to end up in some serious bondage if I didn't wake up. The dream was a message sent by the Lord to get me to snap to attention and obey Him. I stopped watching TV the next day.

Other dreams I had early on were sent by God as a means to help me overcome fear. Before I was saved, especially when I was a little kid, I used to have horrific nightmares and visitations by evil spirits. I had been subject to spiritual bondage through fear. After conversion and deliverance, God sent these dreams to help me overcome the fears I had experienced in my dreams as a little child. These were designed to strengthen my faith and embolden me against the Adversary. And they worked. They were like a spiritual regimen, something God knew I personally needed, in the way I needed, so I could become the overcomer He desired me to be.

So, from that dream, shared above, in which the Lord set me straight about watching television upwards of a dozen or so years ago, I have since learned to not pray against evil spirits when I have a bad dream and feel afraid, but rather to seek God and petition Him for understanding, to help me discern and realize why He directly sent or indirectly, permitted me, to have such a dream in the first place.

[houston]

good stuff

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. But you're not out of your mind. We both know that.

No, sadly we aren't getting anywhere. Because if I was suffering from PTSD you still show that you have zero empathy. Chris, your problems aren't demonic, they aren't psychological, and surely PTSD is something you just want to use. Whether you had a tough time or supposedly the worse episode ever, on the 4th is highly doubtful. Reason why? Because you are a story teller where everytime you are painted as the either the crusader, or the suffering hero. You can't even discern your own posts. The above is supposedly from a man who is the defender of those who suffer from demonic oppression? Or PTSD? Seriously? Chris, you are a legend in your own mind.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I didn't do it out of revenge. In fact, in post #157, I said,

Chris, you did it do defend yourself. You see, anytime you are criticized, or your information is scrutinized you take it as a personal slight. That is why you are seen as the charmer in the political section of this forum. Not because you take up the political cause of the leftist, or that you think that leftists should disrupt churches. But because you have to be the winner, and whether you are right or wrong, winning is all that you care about. Chris, am I reminding you of you slamming me as a biker, or a mechanic, because you said those things too? No, because that is nothing. What I'm pointing out to you is that you attacked a child being burned, showing YOU that whatever you said about trauma, or demonic influences are zero. I have never done that, in all my time being in these forums since FCF. Fess up, people taking you serious? No.

Originally Posted by Aquila

It wasn't revenge.

How old are you? Now you sound like your 12. Chris, you said it was giving me my own medicine? You want to teach us what the scriptures say concerning dress, hair on women, demonic possession, and dreams. From manuscripts which are thousands of years old, but don't even understand common colloquial terms used in modern society? Giving someone their own medicine is a term meaning revenge. Google it, like you do everything else you post here.

Originally Posted by Aquila

A
Those were my true feelings. I didn't choose to test your metal until after you berated people and mocked the reality of PTSD for a number of posts.

You embellish to make yourself the suffering hero again? Chris, mock no, point out with sarcasm yes. But, you, you want to be seen as the defender of widows and orphans? Yet, when the story came up, you couldn't help yourself, but help the stepmother drag the child to the stove. PTSD? Seriously? Chris, you just want to win, therefore any knife in the draw was your remedy? You want me to realize that e are on the same side? I never ever was sarcastic about a child being tortured? Oh, but you even defended yourself about that. You claimed that it was me bellyaching about childhood discipline? That isn't anything I ever done since the days of Jim Yohe. I have never done what you have. Especially claiming to be the defender of those who have had trauma. You are a ghost, while seeking every avenue other than Jesus Christ. You sit in your house church show pictures of people eating, but you yourself aren't having any solace. You admitted, you even said that you were troubled. But like Boy Coy, you want to put on the face, and shapeshift in the Christain costume. Chris, you need Jesus. Take your own advise. Prayer, fasting, soaked in the word, instead of soaking your big head.

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's when I gave you the same measure of hardness you'd given us in a post well into the 400's. You had hammered on several people's trauma and even questioned the faith of a brother on meds, and mocked vets seeking help. I only wondered if you could take what you dished out. I know you don't believe me, but I hinted at this in post #442 when I indicated sorrow for having been hard on you.

Don't scramble Chris, fess up, you want to misrepresent pages and pages of at least two different thread discussions? You need to get honest with yourself. Even If I was to dissipate into the ether and you were crowned king of the universe, you still are walking around playing Christain. Giving advise, on how to get rid of demons, and how to go to a psychiatrist. Yet, unable to see your walking contradictions. Chris I know what I posted, but you, you showed that you aren't real. The only one who can help you is Jesus Christ.
You need the Holy Ghost, you need to seek the Kingdom of Christ, and not men.

Originally Posted by Aquila

As for the shirt issue, I warned that I was going to be blunt. I then relayed what that in the military women tended to flat-back in skirts and that the men I served with saw them as more alluring than women wearing pants.

You warned that you were going to be blunt? Does that say the day, does that help young people and women? Sorry i'm going to be blunt about rape, about child abuse? Chris, you used it as another way to win a game called forum. Chris, you need to dig yourself. But all you see is someone not rubbing your shoulders, and telling you that you are OK.

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're picking on words, but ignoring the point, then misrepresenting the point intended. There you go again, attacking another's faith.

No, Chris, not attacking, but pointing out that you have shown everyone that if you are a physician ready to help posters with disturbing dreams through Private Messages. Then you should be able to realize that you need to heal thyself. But, you don't. If you even had the slightest real life understanding of trauma you wouldn't of picked the issue of a burned child. You wouldn't of used that to seek to defend yourself to win and feel better. You just wouldn't of done that. But if you did have understanding and did this, then you are dangerous.

Originally Posted by Aquila

We're already on the same side, brother EB. You're allowing the enemy to use you to go personal on every thread. You're being irrational in your effort to attack me every night. It's all right here for everyone to see.

irrational? Chris, you think someone trying to have you acknowledge difference between burning a child with spanking. Is being irrational then son, you are over the edge of rationality. Sorry, but you are in it deep.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Aquila,

Regarding the "distortion" of your post that I linked to earlier about your girlfriend and the doll.

I cede to you all the points about that post, that I already acknowledged I forgot.

That's cool, you honestly remembered the story incorrectly and thought it was relevant. I don't hold it against you. Anyone could have made that mistake.

What I do not cede to you is my interpretation of those points. You see it your way, I see it my way. That is what accounts for the alleged distortion. You believe God gave you a Word of Knowledge in response to prayer. I believe something else happened. So does Esaias. So does Michael the Disciple.

Votive, you posted the post to discredit what I had to say. But in hind sight, you admit that the details as you presented them were wrong. But you're going to hold to your mistaken impression of those events. In addition, you say something else happened. But you weren't even there. We'll focus on the facts of the story to see if what you continue to argue pans out.

And so does the other fellow (I forget his screen-name) in that thread who shared a video about how magicians and other such stage acts do "cold reading". That poster went on to say that the Word of Knowledge is, in his opinion, the most abused gift of the Spirit, because the devil pretty much knows the same information and can make it available to a person just as easily as the Spirit of God can.

I agree. Cold reading isn't Word of Knowledge. Here, we agree.

You keep affirming otherwise, that our perception of that event is off, but your discernment and understanding of it is right on.

That's because I was there, and it was me. Am I to deny what happened and agree with you, even though you're wrong? That's irrational.

Let me explain something to you. If ever I had a conversation with someone about the Gifts of the Spirit and in particular the Word of Knowledge, and that someone grabbed up some item and handed it to me and said "Read it" so I could prove to them what I was saying about the Gifts of the Spirit and the Word of Knowledge in particular, I wouldn't dare provoke or put God to the test like that by agreeing to do so.

I fully understand what you're saying here. But if you felt the gift in the Holy Spirit in response to someone daring you, would you follow the Spirit? I did.

That's not coveting the best gifts, or a demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit, even if you prayed. It's divination. plain and simple.

That's a matter of interpretation. Here's an article wherein a man who specializes in helping Christians understand the gift of the Spirit uses the gift in a classroom setting:

It’s also very important to understand that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are always flowing. God doesn’t turn them “on” and “off.” We are the ones who are “on” or “off.” That’s a startling statement to many people and one that verges on blasphemy to some, but it’s true. The Lord is always ready to flow through us in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It’s just like praying in tongues. We don’t have to wait for the anointing of the Holy Spirit to come on us to speak in tongues. We can pray in tongues at any time. It’s not us turning on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is always on and giving us the ability to speak in tongues. Therefore, whenever we turn ourselves on, the gift of tongues is there to allow us to communicate with our heavenly Father. Praise the Lord! That’s the way it is with all the gifts.

I remember one time that I was teaching along these lines in our Charis Bible College. One of the students said, “So, you are saying that you can flow in the gifts of the Holy Spirit at any time?” I said, “That’s right and I’ll prove it to you.” I then started down each row and just started reading the students’ mail. I was telling them things that had to be coming from the Holy Spirit. It was awesome.
http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching...es/flow_gifts/

Now, I don't know this guy personally. But the way he describes the gifts is how I have experienced them. I don't see it as provoking God. I see it as using the gift He gave you to His glory, showing His power and anointing by demonstration and power, instead of just theoretical pontifications of men's wisdom and opinions regarding the gifts.

Before I was saved, when I was a thrall to evil spirits, I used to play a game with people, in which I would have them think of a person they knew, that I didn't know, and have them tell me that person's name, and I would tell them something about that person. I was on target more times than not, and freaked more than one person out. Even as a new convert, being immature and not knowing any better, I did the same thing with some saints one time, and got the same response.

I want to point out that by your own admission, you were deeply involved in the occult and that you confess to having been a thrall to evil spirits. Is it possible that you're being a little reactionary and seeing occult practices where they don't exist based on this?

I have since realized what that kind of thing is, and I never do it, not even for fun.

I'd be worried if you would do that sort of thing for fun today.

So, I understand your desire to stick to your story and perceive it the way you want. But I, and several others openly reject your perception of it, and see it as something totally different, hence why, to you, it's a distortion.

I was there. It was me. How can I not stick to the facts of the event? LOL You weren't there. And based on previous experience with the occult, you're projecting your concerns into the situation. And you're even doing this after you admit that you got the details of the story wrong. Again, this isn't rational. And it's out of character for you. This is where I'd expect you to say, "Ah, I was wrong regarding the details of the story. I was worried based on what I remember. I just didn't want you to be involved with something potentially dangerous." That would be rational, honest, and a valid concern brother to brother. But you're going to insist that your take on something you didn't even witness is superior to the take of the one who was present and to whom it happened. Ummm... that's not going to go well. It would be like me telling you how nice my orange was this morning with breakfast and you insisting that I'm wrong, it was an apple. LOL Dude. This isn't like you. Where are you getting this irrational compulsion?

But that's the funny thing about subjective things like the gifts of the Spirit. Earlier in this thread, you exhorted me by quoting Scripture, saying "Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good". So I am, and you don't like it. To prove something is to put it through a test, to see if it lines up with the rest of the Word of God. If it doesn't, let go of it/don't hold "fast" to it. So I am. I am putting your story to the test to see if it matches up with the rest of the Word of God, and I find your story severely lacking and so, I am not holding on to it as an example of a genuine Word of Knowledge imparted through a Gift of the Spirit.

You don't have to believe it was a genuine Word of Knowledge. No one has to believe anything they are uncertain about. That's your right and I actually support your right to do so. But I will ask, factually, given the details of what actually happened (not what you think about them) where does it not line up with the Word of God?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Aquila, on page 1, post #6, you wrote:



Then, on page 4, in post #32, you wrote:



In nearly two years of deliverance ministry, you only ever encountered one person whom you were certain was "possessed", and that, not even as a part of your formal deliverance ministry training, but just randomly while getting on the bus one day?

Brother, I grew up and lived with three people who were demon possessed, not counting myself. And I consorted with a lot of people who also were, as well. I've met all sorts of people who were possessed by evil spirits, and have been actively involved in casting them out for years. I've been randomly cussed out by strangers, physically attacked, had a knife held up to my throat, and more, by demonized people. I started a campus ministry at a secular, state school, and faced all sorts of demonic pushback, just about everyday for 4.5 years, until I graduated.

So maybe you're out of your league? What kind of deliverance minister only ever meets one person in two years who they are certain is possessed? The church I started out in had people come in all the time who were taken over by evil spirits. A lot of them came in to disrupt and degrade the service; others came in for deliverance, and received it.

I think we might have a disagreement on terms here. I only met one person who was "possessed". While in church one night we had a woman who was possessed. While casting it out of her (I was just holding her arms, I wasn’t leading the deliverance) she became violent and thrashed like crazy with very jerky motions, and she was screaming like she was in pain. As we prayed for her the pastor walked up and ordered the demon to cease making a spectacle and go. She shrieked and fell limp, sobbing on the floor like a baby.

That's the only real "possession" I saw and was personally present for to see observe closely with my own eyes. Her movements and contortions were not natural. Now, I saw and prayed for a number of people who were "oppressed" by the enemy in their lives. Most needed a spirit bound and cast out of their lives, not out of themselves. I also saw people who, as strange as it sounds, thought they were possessed and were just looking for attention and acting a fool in front of the church.

The difference is "possession" vs. "oppression". Please, not distort this too.

But, this is key:

The word "deliverance" is only used by Jesus ONE TIME in the entire Gospels, in Luke 4:18, which reads "...to preach deliverance to the captives...". A lot of people see that, and they go "Aha! He's talking about deliverance ministry for people who are taken captive by evil spirits." Nope. The Greek word translated "deliverance" in that verse is aphesis, which means forgiveness.

Why would "forgiveness" need to be given to captives if they were not taken captive by the enemy due to sin?

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Do deliverance ministers preach forgiveness to those who are taken captive? Do they urge the person being afflicted by evil spirits to repent and obey the Gospel? Do they ever see that the common denominator in every person's life who is being demonized, is that the person in question is the one who is at fault?

Yes. Those who are "possessed" are at fault. They opened the door and let the enemy in through their sinful rebellion and toying with powers that they don't understand. These are unsaved individuals who desperately need the message of the Gospel and the deliverance it brings.

Those who are "oppressed" by an evil spirit may not have done anything wrong. Oppression is a spiritual attack from the outside. With regards to oppression, spirits can tempt one to sin, act irrationally, act out of character. They can also seek to drag saints into a state of depression, defeat, and fear.

A lady met some people from our church and asked for help because her and her children were being demonized. Evil spirits were manifesting themselves visually in their house, touching and attacking them, doing the poltergeist thing, and etc. Some brothers and I went over there, talked awhile about her need for salvation, and shared the Gospel with her. She repented of her sins and my brother and I immersed her in the name of the Lord Jesus. When she came out of the water, she began coughing and vomiting sputum and shaking and wailing. We cast the evil spirit out of her, and she received the Holy Spirit.

Praise God. Awesome testimony. And yes, that sounds like possession.

We went back to her house and prayed, and we knew the house was completely free of evil spirits, simply because she was no longer possessed. Her demonic haunting was the result of her own wickedness and sin, which invited satan into her life. Once her sin issue was dealt with, her demon problem immediately ended.

It's like that when the possessed are set free.

Another sister I know messed around with a ouija board and other occult things and got herself into a major demonic mess, all of which was solved the day she repented of her sins and received the Holy Spirit and was immersed.

Sounds like she invited some spirits into her life that began to oppress her. Yes, she was set free upon receiving salvation.

Still another sister, who used to read tarot, but needed the high from smoking dope to do so, had a demon come out of her when she threw her hands down, and shouted "I don't want this anymore!" As soon as she renounced satan in her life, the demon jumped out and she received the Holy Spirit.

A case of possession resolved through repentance and salvation. Many don't realize that they can free themselves if they resist the devil. The Bible assures us that if we resist he devil he will flee.

The fact is, being freed from evil spirits in the Gospels is always tied to salvation. To say a person, post salvation, is being demonized, is to say they have abandoned their covenant with God, are no longer under the shadow of the Almighty, and are out playing in spiritual minefields. Essentially, it's an accusation that such a one is backslidden. And whether you realize it or not, that's essentially what you've done in this thread, Aquila. You've accused Modest Mama of not being right with God. Or, as you worded it:

That's where we some disagreement. I firmly believe that a born again believer who is filled with the Spirit cannot be POSSESSED. But I do believe that they can be OPPRESSED. These are the fiery darts of the enemy that can be resisted through the shield of faith. Unto believers, James writes:

James 4:7 - Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Believers are warned to be sober and vigilant because they may still face an attack from Satan:

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Concerning false teachers and spirits of deception believers are told:

1 John 4:4 - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Believers are admonished to put on the whole armour of God:

Ephesians 6:11 - Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Paul wrote,

Ephesians 6:12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Solid born again believers are warned to be on guard for spiritual attacks. They are real. It doesn't mean that a saint has sinned or backslidden if the enemy tries to mess with their mind, disturb their peace, or attack their faith.

Which is just another way of saying, the reason the Lord isn't answering her prayers, and that her rebukes are worthless, and nothing is changing for her is because an evil spirit is holding court over her life because she is harboring some occult idol or fetish in the home, or she is living in a sinful, pre-conversion way, or worse (i.e. more complicated).

Doesn't that shake you up in the slightest, that you basically accused this sister of transgressing her covenant with God?

This sister's situation is periodic. It has been happening on and off over a period of 15 years. I think it is a series of spiritual attacks. It's common practice to have believers be sure that they are not holding onto anything that would give a spirit legal right to remain in their lives. It is also common to have believers examine their own lives to ensure that they are not engaging in any sin that might be related to the oppression.

Why are you twisting this way into something it isn't? Again, this isn't like you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Several years ago a family came into church. One of the children, a daughter about 11 years old, came up to the altar to pray. The youth pastor and another person began praying with her. She began to cry and lament, and tremble. Then she fell to the floor as if unconscious. The people who had prayed with her claimed she had received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Someone else nearby was all ecstatic, saying something about "Slain in the Spirit!"

This young girl was then immersed, and upon coming out of the water, manifested an evil spirit, convulsing and shuddering and moaning. The pastor went over to her, put his hand on her head and said "Get out of there", and the demon left and she received the Holy Spirit, for real.

Here, this girl was demon possessed and some misinformed, undiscerning people thought she had received the Holy Spirit and was speaking in tongues. But it wasn't the case, no matter what they had originally claimed.

Amen. Those individuals didn't discern what was really happening. It took a someone with spiritual discernment, and who believed in casting out devils, to help her be set free from possession.

A few years later, she went to go out of town to visit some church friends and while there, she attended a service at the local UPCI assembly. Somehow, some people there convinced her she had an evil spirit that still needed to be cast out.

It sounds like a spiritual attack. It may have been the original spirit cast out of her, or it might have been an entirely different spirit. Either way, all it had to do was whisper into the minds of unguarded saints that this girl had an evil spirit that still needed to be cast out. If they believe those lies and think those are their own thoughts, and they tell her that, it can shake her faith...unless she is rock solid and able to discern the devil's lies as a spiritual attack.

When she came back, she was all confused and hurt, and didn't understand how she could still have an evil spirit when she was already delivered at her baptism and had received the Holy Spirit.

She came back oppressed.

I personally reassured her that she did not have an evil spirit, and the people who had told her she did were wrong.

But the issue threw her so badly, it took nearly three years to help her get back on track, to again be able to walk with the Lord in righteousness, just as she had done before these super-spiritual dingbats deceived her into thinking things about herself that were not true.

They didn't know her personally (sound familiar???). They hadn't been observing her walk with God over the course of time (sound familiar???). They just jumped on her and scared her and nearly completely derailed her with their pseudo-spiritual garbage.

I see what you're saying. But off the top of my head I see three possible issues in her situation.

1.) Maybe they got it right, but used the wrong terms or she misunderstood them thinking that they meant that she was still "possessed" when in fact what they meant was that a spirit was seeking to "oppress" her. Binding and casting out any spirit that would seek to oppress her would be in her best interests in such a situation.

2.) Those saints in the second church could have been unguarded and actually used by an evil spirit to tell her lies designed to derail her. And once those lies were believed, the spirit "oppressed" her for nearly three years until she could overcome the lies. Had someone explained to her that she couldn't possibly be possessed and that these were lies from an oppressive spirit, she could have been delivered instantly by rebuking the lies and casting the lying spirit out of her life.

3.) Or maybe they were just "dingbats" who wrecked her Holy Ghost filled faith with "pseudo-spiritual garbage" and she needed three years to overcome their stupidity.

I tend to lean towards number 2. You'd be surprised how many saints are oppressed by various spirits. Today Christians are taking so many medications for depression, anxiety, etc., it's a shame. Now, while some might truly need the medication, certainly not all of them do. I believe the vast majority of them are oppressed by spirits of fear, depression, and anxiety.

This is the kind of thing I am trying to address in this thread. We need to rise above this kind of thing, and learn how to judge righteous judgment.

Brother, I think you failed to recognize the devil's devices. She was oppressed her for nearly three long years because she believed demonically inspired lies.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Aquila,

About the "low-vibrational trauma" thing from the list you shared.

1.) Yes, I intend to keep bringing this up.

2.) It's not the only questionable item on the list, but it's certainly the one most worth noting.

Here's why:

On page 10, post #94, you claimed the following:

This list, you received from this Matt Burris fellow. You have stated more than once that this Matt Burris was the deliverance ministry leader. This leader clearly considers low-vibrational trauma in the human body to be a true sign of demonic oppression. But low-vibration trauma in the human body is a diagnosis made by shamanistic energy healing psychotherapists, so, where did this Matt Burris get the idea in his head that low-vibrational trauma in the human body is a sign of demonic oppression, if not from the very people who are actively involved in summoning and channeling demons as part of their approach to "energy healing"?

How does the leader of a ministry truck with that? Claiming ignorance disqualifies him from leadership. It's also a de facto confession of hypocrisy. If he, like you, didn't know what low-vibrational trauma is, but still put it on his list, then by not knowing what it is and where it comes from, he is admitting that he is propagating information about which he has no knowledge. That is more than cause for concern. That is dangerous stuff.

On the other hand, if he knows what low-vibrational trauma is and where it comes from, it's a de facto confession that he travels and trades in aspects of pagan demonology as part and parcel of his supposed deliverance ministry.

Either way you slice it, it's wrong. Google "energy healing" and then tell me that what it's supposed to cure belongs on that list? Tell me it's okay for a deliverance ministry leader to recommend low-vibrational trauma in the human body as a symptom of demonic oppression.

Playing this off as no big deal demonstrates a complete lack of concern regarding how one ministers to someone who is actually being demonized.

The ministry of the Kingdom of God is SUPPOSED to be without reproach. The ministry of the Kingdom of God is SUPPOSED to not be blamed for wrongdoing. Those who oversee ministries are SUPPOSED to be blameless, too.

It's this kind of thing that continually brings reproach and blame and makes true ministers of the Gospel of Peace look like charlatans because wolves in sheep's clothing continually make the rest of us look bad.

It has got to stop. Not calling it like it is is the same as having "dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber" (Isaiah 56:10).

Aquila, if you are still in contact with Matt Burris, I challenge you to call him up and ask him about low-vibrational trauma in the human body and how he came to believe it's an indicator of demonic oppression. Then come back here and report.

Whoah.... Slow down cowboy. My son was born in 2006. Now, I was involved in this deliverance ministry well before that. So, that would mean it was before 2005 or 2004. Maybe even as far back as 2003. I got the file off of a CD loaded with files I had saved concerning spiritual warfare, demons, etc. The file I submitted was listed as "SymptomsofOppression". As we talk about this, I'm not even sure if this was the list he sent me. He never mentioned anything like low vibrational trauma, shamanism, etc. In fact, he was dead set against the New Age and the occult. It might be something I downloaded back in the day. I'll need to sort through the files on the CD to see. So, you might be barking up a storm and beating a drum just because I assumed I had the right list. Yes, I should have reviewed it. But do you really think marching me and Burris to our crucifixion over it is necessary. Lighten up. Instead of "accusing", why not just ask the honest questions and we sort it out?

Again, you're normally not this irrational. You're typically more level headed than this.