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  #181  
Old 12-08-2016, 12:05 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

If we suffer another attack that is as catastrophic as 9/11 while this ultra-right-wing-fascist is in office.... you'll see this monster come unhinged. Trump's madness will make President Bush look like Mother Teresa. And a shocked and frightened America will run into his totalitarian arms for safety.... and the Republic will be finished unless a tidal wave of Blue rushes in to bring sanity. But I'm afraid that the drift to the far right is too great, especially if the SCOTUS shifts to a position that favors corporate power and corporate personhood over individual liberties. Thanks to Trump, and those who have voted for him, the American dream of a middle class life (something we're barely clinging to) may very well be finished for an entire generation.

Last edited by Aquila; 12-08-2016 at 12:42 PM.
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  #182  
Old 12-08-2016, 12:36 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

Donald Trump is a fascist Nazi. I gave my reasons for this conclusion. Here are my reasons with a single link that addresses each point with quotes, commentary, and examination. When doing searches on these topics the information was overwhelming. I tried to present what I felt were relatively trustworthy sources that provide quotes and even in some cases, videos, of Trump talking about these topics. This isn't something I'm making up in my head. Had Trump never mentioned such things, these links, quotes, and videos wouldn't exist. It is Trump (or his close supporters) who have embraced these positions. On a couple positions, Trump is ambiguous on his own position. He leaves much to the imagination, without denouncing any of these positions outright.
Trump's campaign was assisted throughout his Presidential campaign by Russia (they will expect favors in return).
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/wo...ssia.html?_r=0

Trump praises Russia and known fascist dictator Putin, a murderous fascist dictator.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.c81c662e337a

Trump has tons of money invested in Russia creating what could become a significant conflict of interest.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politi...cts/index.html

Trump refuses to release his tax returns which would show how deep these investments go. So, Democrats are going after cabinet picks.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.be0f76ef0f4c

Trump invites more hacking by Russia, instead of denouncing it fervently and promising an American response to such criminal acts.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/07...nc-email-hack/

Trump supports stop and frisk gun grabs.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/us...ck-voters.html

Trump asked about using nuclear weapons regarding regional issues three times in a 30 minute security briefing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0693164c347d0

Trump supports isolationist trade policies.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-07-2...ing-economists

Trump met with the heads of media to threaten them should they wish to continue reporting anything negative about him.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/21/medi...rks/index.html

Trump has appointed an Alt-Right nationalist to Chief Strategist.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.e94c811c80f2

Trump supports a national registry of all Muslim citizens.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump...ry?id=43639946

Trump has been ambiguous about internment camps, but uses language that would allow flexibility regarding the idea.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ee30fe3199c2

Trump supports revoking citizenship to flag burners.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/us...amendment.html

Trump supports the creation of a special department with the authority to go door to door to find illegal immigrants and deport them.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/11/politi...ion/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/us...migration.html

Trump supports building a Berlin style wall across our Southern boarder.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...two-years.html


Trump does not support or understand the importance of the NATO Alliance.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.e964f667aaa9
If the man openly supported death camps, he'd score 100% on his NAZI admissions testing. He's a fascist.

Now, as I said before, PLEASE don't use this as an opportunity to cut down each and every point individually. I'm not interested in a point by point rebuttal from a blind ideologue. I'm looking for thinkers. People willing to take into consideration what all of these points mean when combined as a composite whole. Try to contemplate the kind of mind, style of leadership, and philosophy of governance that would employ ALL these measures, or assume all of these positions, combined.

If you don't see the fascism.... you're not paying attention.

Last edited by Aquila; 12-08-2016 at 12:58 PM.
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  #183  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:25 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

  • Trump was assisted throughout his Presidential campaign by Russia (they will expect favors in return).
Allegation. No proof that this actually happened nor that Russia is expecting favors in return.
  • Trump praises Russia and known fascist dictator Putin repeatedly.
True. Trump has praised Putin, Chinese communists and other tyrants for their "strong" leadership.
  • Trump has tons of money invested in Russia.
Allegation, but no proof given. What is being suggested is that Trump has shady investments with Putin and the Russian governments. No proof has been provided. Also, as a man who was CEO of The Trump Organization, which has over 500 international businesses under it, I would be surprised if he didn't have money invested in Russia, China, or any number of major countries around the world. Remember, the bulk of Trump business is real estate.
  • Trump refuses to release his tax returns
True, Trump is the first modern president who has refused to release his tax return information. He continues to offer excuses which aren't valid, the main excuse being that due to an audit, he isn't allowed to release his tax info. The IRS has disputed that and stated there is nothing keeping Trump from releasing his taxes.
  • which would show how deep these investments go.
Allegation. Again, the suggestion is that Trump has shady dealings with Putin, yet there hasn't been any proof given.
  • Trump invites more hacking by Russia, instead of denouncing it fervently and promising an American response to such criminal acts.
True, Trump did make a statement during his stump speeches inviting Russia to do more hacking on Clinton. I'm sure had Wikileaks or Russia been hacking his private information he would have been saying something quite different.
  • Trump supports stop and frisk gun grabs.
He was wrong about the ruling making it unconstitutional in NYC, and he supports a version of stop and frisk, but it's not a gun grab. IMO, it treads on the 4th amendment and should be stopped.
  • Trump asked about using nuclear weapons regarding regional issues three times in a 30 minute security briefing.
First, this is inaccurate. It was not during a 30 minute security briefing, Trump wasn't receiving security briefings when this occured. This was during a conversation with a foreign policy expert who was advising the Trump campaign. The issue made the press when Joe Scarborough mentioned it during his Morning Joe show on MSNBC. Here's the exact quote Joe stated on air:

"I’ll have to be very careful here. Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on [the] international level went to advise Donald Trump, and three times he asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked, at one point, if we have them, why can’t we use them? That’s one of the reasons he just doesn’t have foreign policy experts around him. Three times, in an hour briefing, why can’t we use nuclear weapons."

Scarborough should have done some more research into the claim. It was garbage reporting. There's absolutely no context. Joe's comment makes it appear as though Trump three times in a row asked about using nukes. He gives no context as to what was being talked about during this time, nor about why Trump asked the question alleged. It may have been a perfectly legitimate question, and those three times may have been for different scenarios.

The suggestion liberals and Scarborough are making is that Trump is dangerous and will nuke anyone he wants without consulting with anyone. As much as I don't like Trump and don't trust Trump, I don't believe it.
  • Trump supports isolationist trade policies.
False. Trump wants trade deals, on his terms which are favorable to the US. If he was truly isolationist on trade, he wouldn't be making any trade deals with anyone. We'll see how this unfolds during his term.
  • Trump met with the heads of media to threaten them should they wish to continue reporting anything negative about him.
Source and link. I found this from the NY Times, but nothing in it supports your allegation: "the president-elect delivered a defiant message: You got it all wrong. Mr. Trump, whose antagonism toward the news media was unusual even for a modern presidential candidate, described the television networks as dishonest in their reporting and shortsighted in missing the signs of his upset victory. He criticized some in the room by name, including CNN’s president, Jeffrey A. Zucker, according to multiple people briefed on the meeting who were granted anonymity to describe confidential discussions."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/bu...e-it.html?_r=0

The meeting was off the record, so no transcript, audio or video exists. If you have a source to back up your claim, please post it.
  • Trump has appointed an Alt-Right nationalist to Chief Strategist.
Bannon is not alt-right. Bannon's mistake, however, was allowing Breitbart to become a mouthpiece for alt-right.
  • Trump supports a national registry of all Muslim citizens.
False. Trump does not support a national registry of ALL Muslim citizens -- keyword being "all." Trump has called for " "extreme vetting" of some Muslim immigrants -- and the "reinstatement of a national registry of immigrants and visitors who enter the United States on visas from countries where extremist organizations are active."
  • Trump has appointed men who support internment camps for Muslims.
Source and link please. This is the same stuff that was said of obama by scared Republicans back in 2008. FEMA Camps! Gun grab! Martial law!
  • Trump supports revoking citizenship to flag burners.
True. He also wants to put them in jail for a year. I don't agree.
  • Trump supports the creation of a special department with the authority to go door to door to find illegal immigrants and deport them.
False. Trump said he would have a deportation force, but no where has he ever mentioned this force would be tasked to go "door to door" to round up illegals and deport them. Trump also has praised obama's current immigration policies. I don't believe Trump will do mass deportations as he promised during the campaign. IMO, it was a dog whistle to win votes.
  • Trump supports building a Berlin style wall across our Southern boarder.
False. Trump has said he will build a wall. Again, IMO, it was a dog whistle for votes. I doubt there will be any wall. The NY Times claims in an off-the-record interview that Trump was not as hardline as his rhetoric in campaign speeches. Even after the election, Trump said there wouldn't be a wall along the entire border, that it would be a mix of brick and mortar, electronic and fences. So basically what we already have.

Regarding it being a "Berlin style wall," hyperbole. There won't be any towers with military men/women trained and ordered to shoot people crossing the border.
  • Trump does not support the NATO Alliance.
As it was with obama, I'm sure it will be with Trump. There was a pre-POTUS obama, who touted policies and political beliefs in speeches, then there was the POTUS obama who was vastly different. Trump did speak out against the NATO alliance, but after being elected was said to be committed to the NATO alliance.
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  #184  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:28 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Now, as I said before, PLEASE don't use this as an opportunity to cut down each and every point individually. I'm not interested in a point by point rebuttal from a blind ideologue.


Are you serious!? Several of these points you made are either outright false or inaccurate, as shown by my post above. If there are inaccurate or false claims made, you must exclude them. I know why you don't want each point researched and rebutted -- most are wrong!
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  #185  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:45 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

Sorry, I know you didn't want a point by point rebuttal, obviously because you know such a point by point rebuttal would prove these claims to either be outright false or misleading, which is evident by your begging with capital letters to "PLEASE" not view this point by point. So, ignore if you wish, but I'm going to post a point by point to these. Also I'll do each with a separate post. I will skip the few which are true.
  • Trump's campaign was assisted throughout his Presidential campaign by Russia (they will expect favors in return).
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/11/wo...ssia.html?_r=0
"Later, the Foreign Ministry in Moscow said Mr. Ryabkov had been referring to American politicians and supporters of Mr. Trump, not members of his campaign staff. The contacts were carried out through the Russian ambassador in Washington, who reached out to the senators and other political allies to get a better sense of Mr. Trump's positions on various issues involving Russia. A Trump spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, said Thursday that there had been no meeting between campaign staff members and Russian government officials during the campaign."

Something else to consider -- and this is from the NY Times --
"IT IS NOT UNCOMMON for the presidential nominee of major parties to have contact with foreign leaders, or to meet with foreign government officials."

It is not uncommon. Though it didn't even happen, and you know as well as I that had Trump or his staff been in contact with Putin or Russia as you allege, the media would have found out about it and they would have ran with it 24/7.

During the campaign, Hillary met with the PM of Japan and the President of Egypt.

What you are implying is that Trump had some shady, secret deals with Putin and the Russian government. You claim Russia will be expecting "favors in return," yet there's no shred of proof Russia even did anything worth receiving the alleged favors in return. You used this link as your proof, but this article does not back up your claim. Not one bit.

FINDING: False and misleading.
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  #186  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:57 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

  • Trump has tons of money invested in Russia creating what could become a significant conflict of interest.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/politi...cts/index.html
Previously I focused on Trump's international businesses, which number over 500. I stated since Trump's largest business is in real estate, it wouldn't be shocking, certainly not scandalous, to find he has real estate investments in Russia.

But I wanted to read the article you posted as proof that "Trump has tons of money invested in Russia." One problem. While the article points out the vast international reach of the Trump business, there's one country not listed. Would you like to guess which country it was???

Turkey, Panama, Korea, Canada, Philippines, India, Uruguay, Ireland, UAE and Scotland all have Trump businesses. Trump business is partnered with Daewoo Engineering and Construction in Korea; and he has contracts in India linked to the government and officials.

But there's one country NOT listed....in your link....which was to prove Trump has "tons of money invested in Russia."

RUSSIA!!

Russia is not even listed in the potential conflicts of interest by CNN!

Again, it's no wonder you didn't want your claims examined piece by piece!

FINDING: False and misleading

Last edited by n david; 12-08-2016 at 02:04 PM.
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  #187  
Old 12-08-2016, 02:03 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

  • Trump asked about using nuclear weapons regarding regional issues three times in a 30 minute security briefing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0693164c347d0
I'm going to re-post what I posted earlier on this. Igor and HuffPo took a 10-second sound bite and made a massive assumption. But I don't place the entire blame on them. The blame should be placed on Scarborough for his garbage reporting.

First, this is inaccurate. It was not during a 30 minute security briefing, Trump wasn't receiving security briefings when this occured. This was during a conversation with a foreign policy expert who was advising the Trump campaign. The issue made the press when Joe Scarborough mentioned it during his Morning Joe show on MSNBC. Here's the exact quote Joe stated on air:

"I’ll have to be very careful here. Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on [the] international level went to advise Donald Trump, and three times he asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked, at one point, if we have them, why can’t we use them? That’s one of the reasons he just doesn’t have foreign policy experts around him. Three times, in an hour briefing, why can’t we use nuclear weapons."

Scarborough should have done some more research into the claim. It was garbage reporting. There's absolutely no context. Joe's comment makes it appear as though Trump three times in a row asked about using nukes. He gives no context as to what was being talked about during this time, nor about why Trump asked the question alleged. It may have been a perfectly legitimate question, and those three times may have been for different scenarios.

The suggestion liberals and Scarborough are making is that Trump is dangerous and will nuke anyone he wants without consulting with anyone. As much as I don't like Trump and don't trust Trump, I don't believe it.

FINDING: False and misleading
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  #188  
Old 12-08-2016, 02:10 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

Let's address your first response. After this we can move on to other points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
  • Trump was assisted throughout his Presidential campaign by Russia (they will expect favors in return).
Allegation. No proof that this actually happened nor that Russia is expecting favors in return.
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister, Sergei A. Ryabkov, stated by Interfax news agency that Russian representatives had been in contact various members of the Trump campaign during the presidential campaign and that Russian representatives still maintain contact with members of the Trump campaign now that Trump has won the election. Of course the Trump Campaign argues that there was no official contact that they were aware of. (Like they'd admit to it.)

Are you saying that Sergei Ryabkov is lying?

Combine this knowledge with the fact that U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that Russian hackers were behind the leaking of information that benefitted the Trump campaign. Illegal hacking that Trump openly encouraged!

Are you going to say before both God and men that Russia wasn't in contact with the Trump campaign and that they weren't meddling in our electoral process to influence the election in favor of Trump???

Last edited by Aquila; 12-08-2016 at 02:20 PM.
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  #189  
Old 12-08-2016, 02:19 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

  • Trump met with the heads of media to threaten them should they wish to continue reporting anything negative about him.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/21/medi...rks/index.html
I was very interested to review your source for this, because I was unable to verify it reading other articles.

Disappoint.

"Executives and anchors from the country's five biggest television networks met with President-elect Donald Trump at Trump Tower on Monday afternoon. And they got an earful. Trump vented about media coverage, according to sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity. He was highly critical of CNN and other news organizations. But while Trump showed disdain for the news media, he also answered questions; listened to the journalists' arguments about the importance of access; and committed to making improvements. A source in the room told CNNMoney that there was 'real progress' made with regards to media access to Trump and his administration."

Reading through the entire article gave no hint or whiff of your claim above.

It's not going well thus far for the list of claims made.

FINDING: False and misleading
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  #190  
Old 12-08-2016, 02:24 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Aquila? JD? Light? Why So Quiet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Let's address your first response. After this we can move on to other points.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister, Sergei A. Ryabkov, stated by Interfax news agency that Russian representatives had been in contact various members of the Trump campaign during the presidential campaign and that Russian representatives still maintain contact with members of the Trump campaign now that Trump has won the election. Of course the Trump Campaign argues that there was no official contact that they were aware of. (Like they'd admit to it.)

Are you saying that Sergei Ryabkov is lying?

Combine this knowledge with the fact that U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that Russian hackers were behind the leaking of information that benefitted the Trump campaign. Illegal hacking that Trump openly encouraged!

Are you going to say before both God and men that Russia wasn't in contact with the Trump campaign and that they weren't meddling in our electoral process to influence the election???
What are you reading? Because your own source article says this:

Quote:
the Foreign Ministry in Moscow said Mr. Ryabkov had been referring to American politicians and supporters of Mr. Trump, not members of his campaign staff. The contacts were carried out through the Russian ambassador in Washington, who reached out to the senators and other political allies to get a better sense of Mr. Trump's positions on various issues involving Russia. A Trump spokeswoman, Hope Hicks, said Thursday that there had been no meeting between campaign staff members and Russian government officials during the campaign."
Please post the quote where Mr. Ryabkov says he was in contact with campaign officials. It's not there! "They were familiar with many of the people he described as Mr. Trump's entourage." That's not proof of actual contact or collusion. Heck, I'M familiar with Mr. Trump's entourage!

Also your article states the contact with politicians and supporters was initiated by the Russian ambassador.

Your claim is still false and misleading.
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