Massive shakeup going on!

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Interesing scenario.

What is your suggestion? That they vote him out?

I suppose that is one human way of looking at it.

But, what did they do in Bible times? Did God ever allow a nation to overthrow a wicked king who was living on the donations of the people?

Did God ever sanction a New Testament assembly to "vote out" or "Run out of town on a rail" a pastor?

I agree with you that it's a tremendous injustice when the above situation happens, and I have stated for the record repeatedly that I do NOT agree with a pastor doing this.

However, my position boils down to one simple question:

WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS????????

I don't want your opinion, I want some scripture.

I do know that Paul warned the church about false brethen false teachers. He did instruct them how to deal with these guys.

He told us to follow him ONLY as he followed Christ.

I know paul sure enough got all u[p in the face of Peter..who had the keys of the Kingdom and called him out as the hypocrite he was being in Galatians 2:11-14 Even accusing Peter as leading others (Barnabas) astray.

I do not see the scripture painting a picture that you do to just be quiet and pray and God will take care of an errannt pastor.

I'm not advocating a malicious overthrow of a pastor on petty issues or disagreements over what ime church is going to start.

I'm talking about drastic things that DO happen in some of churches.

I'm saying that the church has a right to have a congregational representive humbly prayerfully approach the pastor and point out the feelings of the congregation.

If they are meant with resistance fron said pastor to the concerns of the congregation and things can not be worked out.

I AM saying that "it's my way or the way". needs to work two ways. this pastor needs to find him self another church.

Why is it that it's the church members that need to walk away and let this pastor take over what they and God have built up over however many years thay have been there.

You might guess I am in NO WAY in favor of these churches that have no board of Elders.

the pastor is the pope....you don't like it...get out..it's my church and I am THEE BOSS.

No annual business meeting ..no accounting of funds recieved.

I really don't think we are to far removed Brother Phelps in out thinking.

other than waiting for God to make things happen when a church is being abused or led astray being your prefered method

I prefer to ask God to help me and the rest of our church board of Elders be helped of God to handle a very unpleasnat situation and deal with the situation before the cogregation is hurt.

As an Elder on our church board that is my job description.

We are thrilled with our pastor. We love him and take care of his needs probablly more generously than we should.

I pray that there is a never a situation that would arise that would warrant action by the board.


ON A SIDE NOTE. We have an outside advisory board set up inour assembly.

We presently have three ministers/pastors on our board that if a ministerial problem ever arose thay can called on for advice.

In the event our pastor, God forbid, was killed in an accident these men that serve oon our advisory board can be called on ito help us find a like minded man to be our new pastor.


Been a pleasure chatting with Br Phepls....hijacked the thread long enough..I'll let it get back to the massive shake up going on

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Interesing scenario.

What is your suggestion? That they vote him out?

I suppose that is one human way of looking at it.

But, what did they do in Bible times? Did God ever allow a nation to overthrow a wicked king who was living on the donations of the people?

Did God ever sanction a New Testament assembly to "vote out" or "Run out of town on a rail" a pastor?

I agree with you that it's a tremendous injustice when the above situation happens, and I have stated for the record repeatedly that I do NOT agree with a pastor doing this.

However, my position boils down to one simple question:

WHAT IS THE BIBLICAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS????????

I don't want your opinion, I want some scripture.

This is a difficult topic, alright, but getting help from kings in Israel is like asking your grandmother to change out your transmission. If you recall, God never wanted kings, he wanted judges. That way they could govern only if the people recognized God's anointing upon their lives. Also, the leadership they excersized would only pass down to children if they were the obvious choice. Otherwise they were rejected and God would anoint someone else.

Also, they did not regulate the daily lives of people as pastors do today. They were spiritual, military, and (sometimes) moral leaders of society who could bind together quarreling times to face a common foe (would to God we could find someone like that today).

Pastors, on the other hand, were generally placed into churches by the founders, and votes to fill vacancies were not recorded. Actually, the exaltation of the role of pastor to a vicar of Christ like status over the saints, not to mention all other components of the five-fold ministry is, in my humble opinion, extra biblical.

Pastors and spiritual leaders only have authority from God as long as they are acting on God's behalf. As Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." Those who follow one who has lost vision of Christ may be regarded as loyal, but they may pay the consequences.

Just ask Jonathan, a godly man who followed his formerly anointed father loyally even though he knew the sad truth that his dad was no longer following God's will. He followed all the to the top of Mt. Gilboa, where he and his father and his brothers were slaughtered and subsequently humiliated.

We pastors need to realize we serve the saints only as well as we serve God.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

This is a difficult topic, alright, but getting help from kings in Israel is like asking your grandmother to change out your transmission. If you recall, God never wanted kings, he wanted judges. That way they could govern only if the people recognized God's anointing upon their lives. Also, the leadership they excersized would only pass down to children if they were the obvious choice. Otherwise they were rejected and God would anoint someone else.

Also, they did not regulate the daily lives of people as pastors do today. They were spiritual, military, and (sometimes) moral leaders of society who could bind together quarreling times to face a common foe (would to God we could find someone like that today).

Pastors, on the other hand, were generally placed into churches by the founders, and votes to fill vacancies were not recorded. Actually, the exaltation of the role of pastor to a vicar of Christ like status over the saints, not to mention all other components of the five-fold ministry is, in my humble opinion, extra biblical.

Pastors and spiritual leaders only have authority from God as long as they are acting on God's behalf. As Paul said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." Those who follow one who has lost vision of Christ may be regarded as loyal, but they may pay the consequences.

Just ask Jonathan, a godly man who followed his formerly anointed father loyally even though he knew the sad truth that his dad was no longer following God's will. He followed all the to the top of Mt. Gilboa, where he and his father and his brothers were slaughtered and subsequently humiliated.

We pastors need to realize we serve the saints only as well as we serve God.

Excellent post - I appreciate your spirit.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Excellent post - I appreciate your spirit.

Ditto...err I mean Amen !! good post

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Ditto...err I mean Amen !! good post

Lol, as you said in a previous post, I think we are more congruent in our thinking than incongruent.

I am one of those pastors who resigned an established UPC church because I could no longer preach and teach what they were accustomed to. I did not feel that it was right for me to stay there and tear the church up and run off good people who had poured their blood, sweat and tears into the church over the years.

Some people encouraged me to stay, preach what I felt, and let the chips fall where they may. However, I did not believe, nor do I still believe that is the right thing to do.

So, please - understand that I am not trying to defend pastors who decide to veer dramatically to the left or right and expect their congregations to blindly follow.

In my opinion, if God has given the pastor a "new" revelation, whether to the left or right, he needs to trust God to take care of him, and graciously leave the established body intact.

However, I also do not condone the churches who just decide that the pastor is not preaching the way they like, or he's not using the right people in leadership, or he's not spending enough time at the hospital visiting people, or he's playing golf too much, or he's preaching out too much, etc., and then feel that these grievances give them the right to "fire" him and run him out of town on a rail.

There is a balance, and as I stated in an earlier post, if there is mutual respect, these issues very seldom arise.

[NW Pastor]

If everybody stays full of the HG and learns that the way to greatness is through service, not domination, and pastors make sure the "new" revelations stand the test of the "old" revelation, everything will be alright.

Pastors should be unafraid to preach without fear or favor the whole counsel of God. Emphasis on God!

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Lol, as you said in a previous post, I think we are more congruent in our thinking than incongruent.

I am one of those pastors who resigned an established UPC church because I could no longer preach and teach what they were accustomed to. I did not feel that it was right for me to stay there and tear the church up and run off good people who had poured their blood, sweat and tears into the church over the years.

Some people encouraged me to stay, preach what I felt, and let the chips fall where they may. However, I did not believe, nor do I still believe that is the right thing to do.

So, please - understand that I am not trying to defend pastors who decide to veer dramatically to the left or right and expect their congregations to blindly follow.

In my opinion, if God has given the pastor a "new" revelation, whether to the left or right, he needs to trust God to take care of him, and graciously leave the established body intact.

However, I also do not condone the churches who just decide that the pastor is not preaching the way they like, or he's not using the right people in leadership, or he's not spending enough time at the hospital visiting people, or he's playing golf too much, or he's preaching out too much, etc., and then feel that these grievances give them the right to "fire" him and run him out of town on a rail.

There is a balance, and as I stated in an earlier post, if there is mutual respect, these issues very seldom arise.

I almost always find my self agreeing with the posts you've made on this forum.

Again I think we agree more than disagree on this issue.

I commend you on your decison to resign that church rather than to possibly cause conflict. That takes a mighty good man my friend.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

I almost always find my self agreeing with the posts you've made on this forum.

Again I think we agree more than disagree on this issue.

I commend you on your decison to resign that church rather than to possibly cause conflict. That takes a mighty good man my friend.

Thank you for your kind words, but I had ulterior motives - I wasn't sure I was up to the fight either, lol.

It would have hurt the church, and although I felt strongly about some things, I knew that the mental anguish and resistance that I would feel would take it's toll, not only on me, but more important - on my family.

It was just the right thing to do, and God has blessed us in many ways.

I'll admit that it's tough tho, especially when you're comfortable, pastor a good church, have a nice home, and a secure income.

There were some dark days pursuant to my decision, but things are much better now, both for the church, and for us.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Well, this should be interesting!

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Interesting.

If true, NOW we'll see how loudly money talks and how much conviction some of these preachers REALLY have.

Will Cardwell and Coon say: "I must stand behind my convictions and I'll go start another church somewhere - or at least try to split off and pastor the split"?

Or, when they think of the tithes and income left behind will they say: "Uh ... maybe I don't need to leave the UPC after all."

This would be devastating politically to any preachers in this trap where their churches are rising up.

Looking back, a lot of these "standards" and preachers vying to see who could preach it more "hard" and "straight" was the result of peer pressure and who could brag the most out under the campmeeting concession stand or the conference halls.

To be seen as too weak to overcome a "carnal" church board and pull a church out and join the rest of the Tulsa gang?

Wow.

THAT would be emasculating.

Anyway, kudos to these churches for being aware and standing up to what really, just amounts to foolishness.

I know both Cardwell and Coon well.

Cardwell's dad, Thomas C., was the longtime pastor of that church, a member of the Louisiana District Board for many years and as fine a man as you'd ever want to meet.

I liked Wayne. He preached for me and we played softball together at youth camp.

Wayne's dad seemed more moderate but Wayne seemed to be more influenced by his more radical brother-in-law, Steve McMullen.

The reports I'm hearing from some sources in DeQuincy, where I have many friends and now-by-divorce ex-family members, is that First UPC is losing quite a few members to Hennigan's.

Coon?

I'm surprised he was involved with this Tulsa thing anyway.

Once again .... if this is true, then kudos to these church boards for recognizing foolishness for what it is.

I don't know if this has been addressed, but I will address it now.
As a member of FUPC DQ, a bit of this information is erroneous.
We are not losing "quite a few members" to any other church. Some have left, but they had considered leaving prior to this issue. Just ask them and they will tell you. To date- we had three longtime members leave. That is a small number and the church has continued to grow in spite of it.
You may consider Bro McMullen radical. I guess if you are carnal minded (which I don't know since I don't personally know you), then he may seem that way. To those who wish to live separated lives, he is an excellent minister and highly regarded.

In final defense of one of the finest pastors and men of God that I have known, Bro Cardwell has never once tried to pull the church out of UPCI, nor has he publicly declared that he was leaving the org or wanting to take the church out of it. These are all rumors started by those who maybe wish to see him removed or have some other agenda.

Irregardless, we are having tremendous revival in spite of the enemy using church members to disrupt it.