KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[tbpew]

Pel,
If you teach that Nicodemas was wondering if being born AGAIN required being born, I am happy to quickly part company with you.

I will not engage such a dramatic stretch to diminish the role being buried has with the new birth, being born again.

New birth requires dealing with the former birth.

I do not know when you plan to drop the bomb shell on your new field of evangelized recruits, that "Oh, by the way...death to the old should have preceeded the new but....."

If water baptism is just a command "just because", teach it any way or at any time you like. But water baptism is not just for cermonial or sacramental compliance.

Burial of the old preceeds the resurrection to new.

A separation is at work.

The Red Sea did not renew, it just dealt with the former taskmaster.

Let's evangelize by providing good news that the hearer can be delivered from his former taskmaster of sin by being buried with Christ in baptism.

Nicodemus was not wondering if a second birth required a first birth. When there is not a first, something can not be AGAIN.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Pel,
If you teach that Nicodemas was wondering if being born AGAIN required being born, I am happy to quickly part company with you.

I will not engage such a dramatic stretch to diminish the role being buried has with the new birth, being born again.

New birth requires dealing with the former birth.

I do not know when you plan to drop the bomb shell on your new field of evangelized recruits, that "Oh, by the way...death to the old should have preceeded the new but....."

If water baptism is just a command "just because", teach it any way or at any time you like. But water baptism is not just for cermonial or sacramental compliance.

Burial of the old preceeds the resurrection to new.

A separation is at work.

The Red Sea did not renew, it just dealt with the former taskmaster.

Let's evangelize by providing good news that the hearer can be delivered from his former taskmaster of sin by being buried with Christ in baptism.

Nicodemus was not wondering if a second birth required a first birth. When there is not a first, something can not be AGAIN.

John 3:3 says nothing about "AGAIN".

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Pel,
If you teach that Nicodemas was wondering if being born AGAIN required being born, I am happy to quickly part company with you.

I don't quite follow. You of course must have been born from your mother's womb (or today, a test tube or robotic incubator) in order to even be a candidate to be "born again" or "born from above."

Originally Posted by tbpew

I will not engage such a dramatic stretch to diminish the role being buried has with the new birth, being born again.

There are many ways in which Christian baptism is described in the Bible ("buried with Christ..." etc), but John 3:5 does not describe Christian water baptism, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by tbpew

New birth requires dealing with the former birth.

Bingo! We've touched bases.

Originally Posted by tbpew

I do not know when you plan to drop the bomb shell on your new field of evangelized recruits, that "Oh, by the way...death to the old should have preceeded the new but....."

But then I lost you... I really don't understand what you mean here.

Originally Posted by tbpew

If water baptism is just a command "just because", teach it any way or at any time you like. But water baptism is not just for cermonial or sacramental compliance.

Burial of the old preceeds the resurrection to new.

A separation is at work.

The Red Sea did not renew, it just dealt with the former taskmaster.

Let's evangelize by providing good news that the hearer can be delivered from his former taskmaster of sin by being buried with Christ in baptism.

Nicodemus was not wondering if a second birth required a first birth. When there is not a first, something can not be AGAIN.

Okay, I think I now see where you're coming from. That's a different angle on John 3:5 than I've seen before, subtly different. And I do agree with with the end result - death, burial and resurrection. It's just I still don't think that the "whole package" is summed up in John 3:5.

In John 3 Jesus is telling Nicodemas that he must be "born again." In the Greek, the word translated as "again" is ambiguous and Nicodemas apparently misunderstands Jesus. The word: anothen, can mean either "from above" or "from the begining or anew." It's the latter usage that Nicodemas latches on. "Born again? Born repeatedly? How is that even possible?" he wonders.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again (from above).'"

Flesh = flesh
Spirit = spirit

You must be born of water (flesh) and Spirit or else your fleshly body will cause your soul to perish for eternity.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by crakjak

John 3:3 says nothing about "AGAIN".

I believe you're referring to the "anothen" ambiguity. I agree, "you must be born from above."

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I don't quite follow. You of course must have been born from your mother's womb (or today, a test tube or robotic incubator) in order to even be a candidate to be "born again" or "born from above."


There are many ways in which Christian baptism is described in the Bible ("buried with Christ..." etc), but John 3:5 does not describe Christian water baptism, in my opinion.


Bingo! We've touched bases.


But then I lost you... I really don't understand what you mean here.


Okay, I think I now see where you're coming from. That's a different angle on John 3:5 than I've seen before, subtly different. And I do agree with with the end result - death, burial and resurrection. It's just I still don't think that the "whole package" is summed up in John 3:5.

In John 3 Jesus is telling Nicodemas that he must be "born again." In the Greek, the word translated as "again" is ambiguous and Nicodemas apparently misunderstands Jesus. The word: anothen, can mean either "from above" or "from the begining or anew." It's the latter usage that Nicodemas latches on. "Born again? Born repeatedly? How is that even possible?" he wonders.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again (from above).'"

Flesh = flesh
Spirit = spirit

You must be born of water (flesh) and Spirit or else your fleshly body will cause your soul to perish for eternity.

Being born again is not being born of something, or some process we generate but of someone - and that is from above ... OF GOD.

The writer of John is very explicit throughout his Gospel and his epistles about what happens when we place our entire trust in HIM and the how and when this happens ... its found in not just in one isolated verse w/ this writer ... we must harmonize his words.

We are born of the Spirit of Christ at the point of faith.

----------------------------------
John 1:12

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

John 3:

3No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e] 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g]

19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.


------------------------------------------------------------


1 John

3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


1 John 4

4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.


1 John 5

5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

[tbpew]

Pel,
the divergence being expressed in our posting is not about the NEW. Everything Dan posted in his last post is certainly the priviledge of newness of life.

Our departure is in how you are addressing the remedy for the old, the former, that which came first, our bondage in sin by our service in carnal-mindedness.

An exodus (change of direction) from Egypt was not all that Israel needed. They needed a judgement of death upon their former taskmaster or else their former taskmaster was going to keep on pursuing until he possessed his former slave. They needed a separation, a cutting away from the former things.

Only in death does sin loose its dominion.

We need to be participant benefactors with the death of our saviour, our propitiation. A way has been made to accomplish this; water baptism, calling upon the name of the one who prevailed over sin, who died in my place. I need to be identified with the name of Jesus, my redeemer.

Water baptism is the vehicle that the God has provided for my deliverance from my former harsh taskmaster; sin.

If you teach the new without dealing with the death of the old/former, you will be leaving in place a double-mindedness that will produce instability. Why would anyone leave such trouble resident in the heart of those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Immediately Peter commanded the house of Cornelius to be baptised, calling upon the name (the authority) of Jesus.

We are baptised in the name of the one who died for us, because it is our act of following the way that has been made available.

It is our way of escape.

It is our Red Sea that has been opened up to provide separation from the bondage of the former.

Can I explain the spiritual efficacy or how death is applied for my life, cutting away the hold sin has on my life? No.

I also can not explain how God's spirit fills a man's heart
or
why God commanded Abraham to circumcise every male.
or
why Jesus made a saave of spit and dirt to apply mud to guys eyes


.....and so on. and so on....

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Pel,
the divergence being expressed in our posting is not about the NEW. Everything Dan posted in his last post is certainly the priviledge of newness of life.

Our departure is in how you are addressing the remedy for the old, the former, that which came first, our bondage in sin by our service in carnal-mindedness.

An exodus (change of direction) from Egypt was not all that Israel needed. They needed a judgement of death upon their former taskmaster or else their former taskmaster was going to keep on pursuing until he possessed his former slave. They needed a separation, a cutting away from the former things.

Only in death does sin loose its dominion.

We need to be participant benefactors with the death of our saviour, our propitiation. A way has been made to accomplish this; water baptism, calling upon the name of the one who prevailed over sin, who died in my place. I need to be identified with the name of Jesus, my redeemer.

Water baptism is the vehicle that the God has provided for my deliverance from my former harsh taskmaster; sin.

If you teach the new without dealing with the death of the old/former, you will be leaving in place a double-mindedness that will produce instability. Why would anyone leave such trouble resident in the heart of those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Immediately Peter commanded the house of Cornelius to be baptised, calling upon the name (the authority) of Jesus.

We are baptised in the name of the one who died for us, because it is our act of following the way that has been made available.

It is our way of escape.

It is our Red Sea that has been opened up to provide separation from the bondage of the former.

Can I explain the spiritual efficacy or how death is applied for my life, cutting away the hold sin has on my life? No.

I also can not explain how God's spirit fills a man's heart
or
why God commanded Abraham to circumcise every male.
or
why Jesus made a saave of spit and dirt to apply mud to guys eyes


.....and so on. and so on....

My ... my ... my ... it is not our works of righteousness, or our "deaths" that brings the life you speak of ...

Titus 3 and other scriptures, tells us this is through Jesus ... and a work of the Holy Spirit.

5(Q)He saved us, (R)not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but (S)according to His mercy, by the (T)washing of regeneration and (U)renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6(V)whom He poured out upon us (W)richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made (X)heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

John, writer of John 3:5 . believed His death was sufficient.

4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

and we all know John 3:16!!!


His death, burlal and resurrection satisfies our debt, TB!!!

Our deaths, TURNING AWAY FROM SIN and blotting away of sins by the WORK OF THE LAMB ... begins at repentance .... Acts 3:19

Anyway don't most PAJCers acknowledge this when they say repentance is our death???? Again Romans 6 tells us it represents all 3 steps of his work.

The inconsistency in terms and logic brings the PAJC view under serious scrutiny.

Furthermore, using PAJC logic maybe we should be baptized everyday .... Paul said he was crucified w/ Christ and died to sin everyday ... yet I dont think he was advocating daily baptism.

This notion that our baptism ... activates or effectuates part of our rebirth is sacramentalist indeed.

Re-enactment does not save us ... HE DOES..

The minute we think we can Out-Calvary Him ... I'M OUT.

[tbpew]

Dan,
Israel had to walk through a miracle of deliverence that God obviously did the work to provide. Was Israel's walking across the Red Sea a work?

No. There was no work or even lawful deeds involved, just obedience to walk through the door God provided.

If walking through a door is a Romans 4 kind of work (deeds of the law), I guess we have no common ground to discuss from; even believing is some kind of work otherwise we would have a universal salvation.

Water baptism is not a deed of law but is a way of escape that the has been provided.

It is wrong to call the act of participating in a way of escape that has been made, a work.

To do so would be a very troubling, and would confuse people about following an opportunity that has been supplied. They are not earning an opportunity, they are participating in an opportunity.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Dan,
Israel had to walk through a miracle of deliverence that God obviously did the work to provide. Was Israel's walking across the Red Sea a work?

No. There was no work or even lawful deeds involved, just obedience to walk through the door God provided.

If walking through a door is a Romans 4 kinda of work (deeds of the law), I guess we have no common ground to discuss from; even believing is some kind of work otherwise we would have a universal salvation.

Water baptism is not a deed of law but is a way of escape that the has been provided.

It is wrong to call being a participant in a way of escape that has been made, a work. That would be a very troubling, and would confuse people about following an opportunity that has been supplied. They are earning an opportunity, they are participating in an opportunity.

Sir, I never called a deed of the law ... but a deed of righteousness as defined by Paul in his book to Titus.

[tbpew]

Would Israel have been delivered from Pharoh if they had not participated in the way of escape provided?