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  #171  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:45 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

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Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
A religion that wants to have national holidays? How dare they!
I think most Americans are woefully ignorant of what’s going on in Europe. In Europe the Muslim community has gone as far as being politically granted jurisdictions where Sharia Law applies. In other words Islamic officials have the legal authority to enforce Islamic Law in areas with a rich or sizeable Islamic community.

Here in the United States there was a case where an Islamic man raped his wife (forcibly took her without her consent). The local court dropped the charges stating that they don’t believe he acted criminally…the man was acting in accordance to Islamic law that allows a man to subject his wife to such treatment. The woman had to appeal to a higher court to get the lower court’s decision overturned. While we thank God that the system worked for her and finally delivered justice, it shows how the liberal mindset of the European governments is seeping into at least one lower court in the United States. As the Islamic population grows (as in Europe) you’re most likely going to see more and more lower courts rule in favor of Muslims acting in accordance with Islamic law though their actions may have broken American laws. This is SERIOUS. We have to view Islam as more than just a “religion”. It is a political force and philosophy as well. Therefore we have to take STRONG political measures to isolate Islamic law to being a personal practice that our counts NEVER recognize.

Quote:
They have an idealogy of a theocracy? Never heard of that before outside of Islam!
Any form of purely theocratic government can be dangerous. However, we are a Western people with engrained Christian values in our justice system. Some ideology will dominate. I’d trust our children to being raised in a Christian slanted culture over an Islamic culture any day.

Quote:
I don't deny that Islam has an agenda and mission to "evangelize the world." But you insist on stigmatizing all American Muslims as being supporters of 9/11 terrorists. It equals to nothing more than Islamaphobia. A moderate Mulslim's desire to "evangelize the earth" should not preclude them from being able to build a place of worship.
That’s not necessarily true. My point is that all Muslims are expecting their “al-Mahdi” to appear and assist with spreading Islam from sea to shining sea through both peaceful political means and/or military means. The extremists are attempting to hasten his coming by destabilizing the global community. As this happens the moderates are peacefully advocating legal recognition of Sharia Law in Europe and the rest of the Western world. The Moderates are perhaps the most serious threat. Why? We can counter attack extremists and no one approves of their tactics (even many if not most Muslims). However, the Moderates who desire to work peacefully and politically can’t be stopped unless strong political measures are taken against them.

Quote:
I oppose the Mosque building on different grounds. More of a PR issue for Muslims, since this particular Imam refuses to denounce terrorism, calling it a "complex issue."
This is a great example of the Moderate Muslim. For many of them it is a “complex issue”. Their religion allows for such action…though their individual sect may not have a tradition for taking such action. Do they denounce a Muslim brother who is acting in accordance to Islam’s tenants based on merely a difference of sectarian philosophy? They can’t categorically denounce the extremists.

In Christianity the NT takes a strong position against violence. So we don’t face that complexity. But we might be able to compare it to Pro-Life protestors. Many faithful Christians actively protest outside abortion clinics. However, other faithful Christians believe that’s in bad taste and that abortion should be handled differently and with fewer public displays of venom or shock tactics. Neither side can really denounce the other. It’s not “un-Christian” to peacefully protest outside an abortion clinic. Nor is it un-Christian to take a more moderated approach to dealing with abortion. Maybe this is a bad example, but I’m trying to find a correlation.

Many don’t see how serious this issue with Islam really is.
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  #172  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:47 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

It's a time honored Islamic practice to build a Mosque on the site of a military victory. This is a very loud statement that the war is far from over.

Many forget that this is exactly that.... war.
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  #173  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:48 PM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
It's a time honored Islamic practice to build a Mosque on the site of a military victory. This is a very loud statement that the war is far from over.

Many forget that this is exactly that.... war.
People were protesting far before this little slogan started flying around the internet. Red Herring.
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  #174  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:50 PM
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

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Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
Well, I'm sure your words are costly and extravagant, but I'll attempt to reply to your question:

I don't think ANYONE has a solution per se (meaning, this will "fix everything"), including either you nor I. I know what's NOT the solution, and what's NOT the solution is to spit on the Constitution, spit on fellow citizens who espouse a religion that has fringe radicals, very much like fringe-like and radical-like Christian groups and militias. We need to back away from xenophobia and islamaphobia and think about this in an objective way, rather than an emotional, blathering red neck way.

I do know there's more to the solution than silly assumptions that all Muslims are terrorists. I know there's more questions on the interrogation sheet. In the background checks. In the checkbox for "red flags."

It's factually true that "they" aren't all (or even mostly) radical Muslim fundamentalists.

There's more than "two groups." But the differentiation isn't difficult. Do they have terrorism relationships/connections? Are they holding training camps? Are they smuggling weapons? Are they spewing out statements about destroying the American people? Just a few ways to "differentiate."


So... I say some words are "cheap" and you immediately, as usual, rise up in arms with your "charitable responses!" My word was "costly and extravagant???" Oh yea! Maximilian, I don't know you and have no bone to pick with you...but your arrogance is overwhelming. Let me make a point or two before I sign off.

1) Who in the thread has "spit" on the Constitution? Cute words with no meaning, as far as I am concerned....unless you're talking about Obama and some of his cohorts.

2) Spit on fellow citizens? And who did that? You?

3) Fringe radicals? You've got to be kidding! No one, that I can ever recall, has had more fringe radicals than Obama!

4) Blathering red neck way Awe... there's some good words from the master orator! I guess these are "costly and extravagant!"

5) All Muslims are terrorists ........ Who said that "ALL" (or even mostly) are radical Muslim fundamentalists.? Show me the post!

6) Do they have terrorism relationships/connections? Are they holding training camps? Are they smuggling weapons? Are they spewing out statements about destroying the American people? So! we know all those Muslims in our country who are guilty of the above? Or are we victims of their secret lives and what they are doing behind our backs? But, don't question any of the many activities that are going on! To do so make us.... let's see??? xenophobia and islamaphobia!

A list of a few of the Muslim atrocities of the past few years...

4/14/1972 USA New York, NY — Ten members of a local mosque phone in a false alarm and then ambush responding officers, killing one.
1/19/1973 USA Brooklyn, NY — Muslim extremists rob a sporting goods store for weapons, gunning down a police officer who responds to the alarm.
7/18/1973 USA Washington, DC — Nation of Islam members shoot seven members of a family to death in cold blood, including four children. A defendant in the case is later murdered in prison on orders from Elijah Muhammad.
11/25/1973 USA Oakland, CA — A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/13/1973 USA Oakland, CA — A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/20/1973 USA Oakland, CA — Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.
12/22/1973 USA Oakland, CA — Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.
12/24/1973 USA Oakland, CA — A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.
1/24/1974 USA Oakland, CA — Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.
4/16/1974 USA Ingleside, CA — A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.
3/9/1977 USA Washington, DC — Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.
7/22/1980 USA Bethesda, MD — A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.
8/31/1980 USA Savou, IL — An Iranian student guns down his next-door neighbors, a husband and wife.
11/6/1989 USA St. Louis, MO — A 17-year-old girl is stabbed to death by her parents for bringing 'dishonor' to their family by dating an 'infidel' African-American.
1/31/1990 USA Tuscon, AZ — A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tuscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.
1/25/1993 USA Langley, VA — A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.
2/26/1993 USA New York, NY — Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.
3/1/1994 USA Brooklyn, NY — A Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.
3/23/1997 USA New York, NY — A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.
4/3/1997 USA Lompoc, CA — A prison guard is stabbed to death by a radical Muslim.
10/31/1999 USA Near Nantucket — An Egyptian airline pilot runs a planeload of 217 passengers into the water after uttering a Qur'anic prayer.
3/17/2000 USA Atlanta, GA — A local imam and Muslim spiritual leader guns down a deputy sheriff and injures his partner.
9/11/2001 USA Shanksville, PA — Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.
9/11/2001 USA New York, NY — Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.
9/11/2001 USA Washington, DC — Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.
3/19/2002 USA Tuscon, AZ — A 60-year-old man is gunned down by Muslim snipers on a golf course.
5/27/2002 USA Denton, TX — Muslim snipers kill a man as he works in his yard.
7/4/2002 USA Los Angeles, CA — Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.
9/5/2002 USA Clinton, MD — A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.
9/21/2002 USA Montgomery, AL — Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.
9/23/2002 USA Baton Rouge, LA — A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.
10/2/2002 USA Wheaton, MD — Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.
10/3/2002 USA Montgomery County, MD — Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.
10/9/2002 USA Manassas, VA — A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.
10/11/2002 USA Fredericksburg, VA — Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.
10/14/2002 USA Arlington, VA — A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.
10/22/2002 USA Aspen Hill, MD — A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.
8/6/2003 USA Houston, TX — After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.
12/2/2003 USA Chicago, IL — A Muslim doctor deliberately allows a Jewish patient to die from an easily treatable condition.
4/13/2004 USA Raleigh, NC — A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.
4/15/2004 USA Scottsville, NY — In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.
6/16/2006 USA Baltimore, MD — A 62-year-old Jewish moviegoer is shot to death by a Muslim gunman in an unprovoked terror attack.
6/25/2006 USA Denver, CO — Saying that it was 'Allah's choice', a Muslim shoots four of his co-workers and a police officer.
7/28/2006 USA Seattle, WA — An 'angry' Muslim-American uses a young girl as hostage to enter a local Jewish center, where he shoots six women, one of whom dies.
10/6/2006 USA Louisville, KY — In an 'honor' attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children.
2/13/2007 USA Salt Lake City, UT — A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine's Day cards at a gift shop and killing five.
1/1/2008 USA Irving, TX — A Muslim immigrant shoots his two daughters to death on concerns about their 'Western' lifestyle.
7/6/2008 USA Jonesboro, GA — A devout Muslim strangles his 25-year-old daughter in an honor killing.
2/12/2009 USA Buffalo, NY — The founder of a Muslim TV station beheads his wife in the hallway for seeking a divorce.
6/1/2009 USA Little Rock, AR — A Muslim with 'religious motives' shoots a local soldier to death inside a recruiting center.
11/2/2009 USA Glendale, AZ — A woman dies from injuries suffered when her father runs her down with a car for being too 'Westernized.' (10-20-09)
11/5/2009 USA Ft. Hood, TX — A Muslim psychiatrist guns down thirteen unarmed soldiers while yelling praises to Allah.
12/4/2009 USA Binghamton, NY — A non-Muslim Islamic studies professor is stabbed to death by a Muslim grad student in revenge for 'persecuted' Muslims.
4/14/2010 USA Marquette Park, IL — After quarrelling with his wife over Islamic dress, a Muslim convert shoots his family members to 'take them back to Allah' and out of the 'world of sinners'.
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  #175  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:51 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

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Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
Well, I'm sure your words are costly and extravagant, but I'll attempt to reply to your question:

I don't think ANYONE has a solution per se (meaning, this will "fix everything"), including either you nor I. I know what's NOT the solution, and what's NOT the solution is to spit on the Constitution, spit on fellow citizens who espouse a religion that has fringe radicals, very much like fringe-like and radical-like Christian groups and militias. We need to back away from xenophobia and islamaphobia and think about this in an objective way, rather than an emotional, blathering red neck way.

I do know there's more to the solution than silly assumptions that all Muslims are terrorists. I know there's more questions on the interrogation sheet. In the background checks. In the checkbox for "red flags."

It's factually true that "they" aren't all (or even mostly) radical Muslim fundamentalists.



There's more than "two groups." But the differentiation isn't difficult. Do they have terrorism relationships/connections? Are they holding training camps? Are they smuggling weapons? Are they spewing out statements about destroying the American people? Just a few ways to "differentiate."
There are zoning laws that would prevent the building of a church or house of worship near certain business establishments or in certain communities. There are zoning laws that prevent certain business establishments from being opened near schools or houses of worship. What we're saying is that this project should be halted by the zoning committee and zoning laws be implimented that prevent the building of a mosque on or immediately near the a site of terrorist attacks. Such should be zoned as "functional battlefields" where in only previously function businesses should be established or businesses of like types.
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  #176  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:52 PM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

Aquila, your position suggests that many American are naive about the "real Muslim movement," referencing the Mark Steyn-type predictions of fads plaguing Europe. Your response to those who insist that it's wrong to group all Muslims together as radicals is illogical and unethical, is to call them naive. I get it.

As far as Moderate Muslims not being able to renounce terrorism, you're wrong. Many have done so and continue to do so. That fact in itself contradicts what you're saying.

You can't legally boycott a religion. I'm appalled the people pushing for that (based on your remarks above, that we should wage war against Islamic culture) are Conservatives.
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  #177  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:53 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

Maximilian, did you loose anyone close to you in the WTC attacks on 9/11?
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  #178  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:57 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

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Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
Aquila, your position suggests that many American are naive about the "real Muslim movement," referencing the Mark Steyn-type predictions of fads plaguing Europe. Your response to those who insist that it's wrong to group all Muslims together as radicals is illogical and unethical, is to call them naive. I get it.

As far as Moderate Muslims not being able to renounce terrorism, you're wrong. Many have done so and continue to do so. That fact in itself contradicts what you're saying.

You can't legally boycott a religion. I'm appalled the people pushing for that (based on your remarks above, that we should wage war against Islamic culture) are Conservatives.
Well, this surely testifies to the fact that the man behind the project isn't "Moderate" even by your definition.

Bro... they declared war against us. Don't you remember? If the Muslim community will honor zoning laws that protect sites of terrorism where life was lost, if they support laws that prevent ANY form of Sharia from EVER being recognized in the United States... I have no issue with them. I know good Muslim folk too. But the issue for me is that this is far from over... and when their al-Mahdi appears (and one claiming to be the al-Mahdi is coming) you'll see many "moderates" change colors like time bombs.
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  #179  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:59 PM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

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Originally Posted by BeenThinkin View Post
So... I say some words are "cheap" and you immediately, as usual, rise up in arms with your "charitable responses!" My word was "costly and extravagant???" Oh yea! Maximilian, I don't know you and have no bone to pick with you...but your arrogance is overwhelming. Let me make a point or two before I sign off.

1) Who in the thread has "spit" on the Constitution? Cute words with no meaning, as far as I am concerned....unless you're talking about Obama and some of his cohorts. My point was that by insisting on stereotyping all Muslims and treating them as radicals themselves is not only illogical, but violates their own citizenry and rights protected and guaranteed by the Constitution. It was not suggesting someone has, in this thread, "spit" on anything

2) Spit on fellow citizens? And who did that? You? Reading comprehension is lacking.

3) Fringe radicals? You've got to be kidding! No one, that I can ever recall, has had more fringe radicals than Obama! Why are we talking about Obama? You guys are like those toys that have 6 little slogans it says when you push a button. SOmetimes, in discussion, that's what it feels like. No matter if it makes sense or not, just repeat that slogan. "Radicals" triggers "Huh? Radicals.. OBAMA SUCKS."

4) Blathering red neck way Awe... there's some good words from the master orator! I guess these are "costly and extravagant!" My "costly and extravagant" were sarcastic comparisons to what you called other poster's words as "cheap" - don't over-analyze. Yes, playing the lynch mob for all non-Western Muslims is extremely red neck and not a huge exaggeration.

5) All Muslims are terrorists ........ Who said that "ALL" (or even mostly) are radical Muslim fundamentalists.? Show me the post!

Read the last couple of pages. That's what I'm hearing. Those who suggest they aren't unified are naive. And... this is my basic argument of why you can't protest a Mosque simply because it's Muslim.

6) Do they have terrorism relationships/connections? Are they holding training camps? Are they smuggling weapons? Are they spewing out statements about destroying the American people? So! we know all those Muslims in our country who are guilty of the above? Or are we victims of their secret lives and what they are doing behind our backs? But, don't question any of the many activities that are going on! To do so make us.... let's see??? xenophobia and islamaphobia! Don't be so silly to think there's too many secrets these days. What "activities" are you talking about? You call bemoaning all who are Muslim as "questioning activities?" Look, at the end of the day, I have objections to the Mosque. I feel my reasons, though, are not just knee-jerk reactions, but an opinion I arrived at after reviewing the evidence. I never said "questioning activities" makes one a xenophobe or islamaphobe. If you feel the need to question all Islamic people for that reason alone, then perhaps.

.
Reply above.
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  #180  
Old 08-16-2010, 03:59 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

Max... your head's in the sand bro. I think that Islam has as much a right to be practiced here in America as the KKK's version of Christianity. However, we'd never let the KKK build a center supporting their philosophy on the site of regular lynchings. If terrorism isn't a "hate crime" I don't know what is. They should NOT be allowed to build a Mosque so close to the ruins of the WTC. It's inappropriate and in terrible taste number one. Number two, it sends the cultural message to Muslims all over the world that it was the site of Islamic victory.

Image having lost a loved one in the WTC. Over 3,000 Americans are dead and their family's live with their deaths every day. The rewriting of zoning laws to prohibit the bulding of Islamic centers of worship on sites of known Islamic terror, when this is their practice to declare a military victory for Islam, is perfectly sound and in order.

Last edited by Aquila; 08-16-2010 at 04:03 PM.
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