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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #161  
Old 05-04-2007, 08:54 AM
Chan
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I never said "my message" was a focus on anything. The unavoidable truth is that Jesus preached against sin...sorry but that is just the truth.

Secondly, you clearly are not reading what I am saying because I DID imply it was a message of Hope. There is GOOD NEWS....Yes the sinner has sinned against God but there is HOPE. Jesus died for your sins. That is the gospel. The death (why did he die?) buriel and resurrection. There is HOPE for him that is lost in sin....but very often those that are lost in sin do not think they are lost in sin...
Grace to the humble, law to the proud

See, YOUR message is a focus on one thing. And because YOUR Message is a focus on one thing, you think OURS is a focus on one thing. That is again another fallacy.

I don't look at a cup that is half empty or half full. I look at the WHOLE cup...Jesus preached against sin. Jesus preached repentance. John preached repentance...Paul preached repentance. They preached repentance! They spoke of heaven. They spoke of hell. They spoke of Judgement. They spoke of worse things that could happen.

You keep alluding to an argument that never occured. Nobody here has said "don't tell them about heaven". I don't know what else to say to you. You are fighting an imaginary opponent....in debate terms we call that a strawman argument
What I'd like J-Roc to tell us is how a person will ever know that the gospel (Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and eventual return) is good news if we don't tell the person why Jesus had to come into this world, die on the cross, and rise from the dead but, instead, just tell them something along the lines of "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Accept Jesus as your very own personal Lord and Savior and He'll give you peace, joy, love, contentment, etc. and everything will be sunshine and roses."
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  #162  
Old 05-04-2007, 09:01 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan View Post
What I'd like J-Roc to tell us is how a person will ever know that the gospel (Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and eventual return) is good news if we don't tell the person why Jesus had to come into this world, die on the cross, and rise from the dead but, instead, just tell them something along the lines of "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Accept Jesus as your very own personal Lord and Savior and He'll give you peace, joy, love, contentment, etc. and everything will be sunshine and roses."
A balanced truthful message is best ....
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  #163  
Old 05-04-2007, 10:34 AM
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J-Roc J-Roc is offline
His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down


 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan View Post
What I'd like J-Roc to tell us is how a person will ever know that the gospel (Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and eventual return) is good news if we don't tell the person why Jesus had to come into this world, die on the cross, and rise from the dead but, instead, just tell them something along the lines of "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. Accept Jesus as your very own personal Lord and Savior and He'll give you peace, joy, love, contentment, etc. and everything will be sunshine and roses."
None of you seem to understand where I am coming from...I am not omitting anything important that needs to be told to a convert...I am just simply saying where I stress my emphasis...is that so hard to capture? How else can I convey where I put my emphasis to you guys? This is amazing!!!

As for telling folks as Chan puts it: "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life...."

I am simply reminded by John 3:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Let's break that down...this scripture mentions both consequences, but first stresses that the sacrifice is for eternal life. It tells you first of the beauty of having no condemnation if we believe....then it tells the person...hey, if you don't accept these terms to eternal life (namely, believing) then guess what, this is what will happen to you.....DOES ANYBODY SEE WHERE MOST OF THE EMPHASIS IS ON!!!!
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  #164  
Old 05-04-2007, 10:42 AM
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J-Roc J-Roc is offline
His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down


 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
You been SLAIN J-Roc ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
The carnage continues ....

Dan, I see a pattern here....this is the exact attitude you had with me last year when you violently opposed me regarding soteriology and how you used to prescribe to the PAJC view just before I converted you to the truth of the PCI view on salvation....you were an Epleyian or a Bernardian just before I got through with you...having said that, I see you ripe for change and conversion! I have a quote for you below....


"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
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  #165  
Old 05-04-2007, 10:58 AM
Chan
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Originally Posted by J-Roc View Post
None of you seem to understand where I am coming from...I am not omitting anything important that needs to be told to a convert...I am just simply saying where I stress my emphasis...is that so hard to capture? How else can I convey where I put my emphasis to you guys? This is amazing!!!

As for telling folks as Chan puts it: "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life...."

I am simply reminded by John 3:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Let's break that down...this scripture mentions both consequences, but first stresses that the sacrifice is for eternal life. It tells you first of the beauty of having no condemnation if we believe....then it tells the person...hey, if you don't accept these terms to eternal life (namely, believing) then guess what, this is what will happen to you.....DOES ANYBODY SEE WHERE MOST OF THE EMPHASIS IS ON!!!!
Your emphasis is in the wrong place and, no, you were fighting against what Keith and others here were saying about how wrong your emphasis is - particularly in the light of "shall not perish" and "whoever does not believe is condemned already." Again, people can't know why they should want eternal life if they don't know the danger that they are in.
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  #166  
Old 05-04-2007, 11:00 AM
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Malvaro Malvaro is offline
Bro. Y, I'll never forget...


 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith4him View Post
Ok I know he's Baptist or least that's my impression.

But this guy does have a revelation of the importance of repentance in the conversion process.

Listening to his series, I have both the book and his cd's/dvd, I can't believe that church has made the felt needs/friendship evangelism method the most primary way to reach sinners. Basically come to Jesus and your life will be better, happy and wonderful. Yes, God does bless us when we are apart of the kingdom. The door still remains repentance.

I agree with him in his observation that the church (larger corporate as we know it here in the states) has stopped or not used the Biblical facts that sinners are sinners and they better understand that before the really appreciate the grace of God.

I thought his teaching on false conversions was exceptional.

Any other observations thoughts about this his teaching from some of you in the know?
ironically enough, I listened to this message a week ago.... great message, had some really good points....
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"Rules without relationship lead to rebellion." Dr. James Dobson

"You don't need a license to preach, or teach, or win souls." RonB

"In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength." Robert E. Lee (1807-1870)

Never tell a young person that anything cannot be done. God may have been waiting centuries for someone ignorant enough of the impossible to do that very thing. ~ John Andrew Holmes
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  #167  
Old 05-04-2007, 11:01 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Roc View Post
Dan, I see a pattern here....this is the exact attitude you had with me last year when you violently opposed me regarding soteriology and how you used to prescribe to the PAJC view just before I converted you to the truth of the PCI view on salvation....you were an Epleyian or a Bernardian just before I got through with you...having said that, I see you ripe for change and conversion! I have a quote for you below....


"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
2 distinct things ... one involves the finer points of theology ... the other is black and white ... a balanced view here is what the Word clearly states ... to proport otherwise is misleading ....
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  #168  
Old 05-04-2007, 11:05 AM
SDG SDG is offline
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This discussion has reminded me of the 2 stones the priests ... held the Urim and Thummim ....
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  #169  
Old 05-04-2007, 12:26 PM
J-Roc's Avatar
J-Roc J-Roc is offline
His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
2 distinct things ... one involves the finer points of theology ... the other is black and white ... a balanced view here is what the Word clearly states ... to proport otherwise is misleading ....
And balance is what I sought after from my very first objection...when I countered Keith's mention of a supposed fallacy, you didn't see me rejecting repentance from sin which is the other side of the coin (when I refer to coin I mean = turning from sin vs. turning to God)...I simply questioned why he would call it a fallacy....to call it a fallacy is to say that you will only present one side of the coin. And because I called neither side of the coin fallacy, it is clear that I will present both sides of the coin.

To say that it is a fallacy that when you respond to the gospel it will make you happy (whether temporal or eternal) and all the other good benefits that come with it is simply irresponsible.

Capiche?
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  #170  
Old 05-04-2007, 08:05 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Roc View Post
None of you seem to understand where I am coming from...I am not omitting anything important that needs to be told to a convert...I am just simply saying where I stress my emphasis...is that so hard to capture? How else can I convey where I put my emphasis to you guys? This is amazing!!!

As for telling folks as Chan puts it: "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life...."

I am simply reminded by John 3:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Let's break that down...this scripture mentions both consequences, but first stresses that the sacrifice is for eternal life. It tells you first of the beauty of having no condemnation if we believe....then it tells the person...hey, if you don't accept these terms to eternal life (namely, believing) then guess what, this is what will happen to you.....DOES ANYBODY SEE WHERE MOST OF THE EMPHASIS IS ON!!!!
Actually this all started with you taking issue with what Keith said and then you started going on about what perks believers get, when we kept reminding you the issue is what do we tell the lost, not the believers.

Nobody here suggested we NOT tell them of the good things and as for emphasis in scriptures...you are just quoting one verse and declaring THIS is THE emphasis.

My question is, why even have an emphasis? Why not just emphasis the WHOLE message?

BTW in this verse, before he mentioned Eternal Life he mentioned a condition "believe" and what he mentioned happening as a result before Eternal life he said "would not perish"....

So why not tell someone, if you repent of your sins you will not go to hell, but will go to heaven"? Or even "if you repent of your sins you will Go to heaven and not hell"?
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