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View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Women Preachers?
Yes 128 62.75%
No 55 26.96%
Don't Care 21 10.29%
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  #1671  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:47 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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A greeting is not equivolent to God's order of creation & the violation there-of. "For Adam was FIRST formed, THEN Eve."

And, I HAVE done this before [as well as many I know]...did it say to do it "everytime":_____________? Nope! So, your silly "Kis" argument is moot in my case. And YES, I have said publically that we should be doing this still! Next.....
You aren't consistent, RDP.

If it says this is how we should greet each other, and you don't think it's a cultural limitation -- but you say "well it didn't say EVERY time." That just sounds suspicious and quite silly.

Why on earth would I, a Westerner living in the 21st Century greet a brother with a kiss??? Does that make even a lick of sense, RDP? Really? The way you read the scriptures is like it's a code of conduct, a rule book even --- instead of a shared story, informing us about God.

So how often should we be smooching each other? Once a year? One in a lifetime? How do we get our laws consistent with that law book called scripture?
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  #1672  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:48 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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The kiss question doesn't relegate the whole bible to not being relevant today. What it does do is prove that some commands in the new testament were given because of culture. Does this proof directly map over into the arena of women preachers? Nope. But it still provides us with a principle that opens up the possibility that women preachers were banned due to culture.
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  #1673  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:49 AM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
How amazing! I'm reading a book by Douglas Moo in which he destroys the notion of women in the 5-fold NT ministry! I've also interacted w/ him & daniel Wallace via email in which they dealt extensively w/ I Tim. 2:11-15 destroying the notion that this is referring to the "Home environment". Yes...I still have the emails! Try again!
Share those emails! Would love to see.

While you're at it, read Moo's exegesis on Romans! Sure you'd guys agree on a lot!
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  #1674  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:02 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Here's a question. If it can be shown that Junia was a woman and deemed by Paul to be an apostle then I think the case of women preachers is closed.

Now, what if it can only be shown that it is highly likely that Junia was a woman that was deemed by Paul to be an apostle. Should someone take the very unlikely position that she was not a woman who was deemed by Paul to be an apostle just because it seems likely that 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy ban women preachers?

I don't have an answer... but this question is more a question about the proper process of biblical interpretation when we are dealing with ambiguous passages.
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  #1675  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:06 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

here is a look at different veiws:
Junia's gender

That she was a woman is seldom contested today among Christian theologians.[11] Considering the cultural climate of a time when women were treated as minor children with no legal or property rights, U.S. journalist Rena Pederson thinks it understandable that Junia's role was ignored or even hidden for centuries since medieval scholars changed her name to Junias to make it masculine. She opines that the growing acknowledgment of Junia's female apostleship will establish an important precedent for women preaching and teaching. "And since Paul often has been viewed as someone who wanted to keep women quiet, his praise for Junia seems to show that he was much more broadminded in practice," Pederson adds.
Stephen Finlan notes that Junia is recognized as “the only female apostle named in the NT.”[13] He writes that Junia is clearly a female name that was changed to the male "Junias" in the Latin translations of the New Testament. In Paul's identification of her as a relative, as being "in Christ" before him and "prominent among the apostles," Finlan finds it significant that Paul greeted her as an "apostle" in a straightforward, matter-of-fact way as if there is nothing unusual in a female apostle. In the Corinthian and Roman letters, Paul addressed a number of women as "leaders," but Junia is the only female apostle named in the New Testament.[13]
The problem of translating the name arises because, when the New Testament was composed, Greek was normally written without accents, although these already had been invented. If written with an acute accent on the penultimate syllable (Ἰουνίαν), the name is "Junia" (a woman's name); if with a circumflex accent on the final syllable (Ἰουνιᾶν), it is "Junias" (a man's). No conclusion can be drawn from the masculine gender of the associated words in the same verse, since they apply also to the male Andronicus. Accordingly, even if Junia(s) is a woman, the rules of Greek grammar put those words in the masculine form. The overwhelming choice of the male form, (Ἰουνιᾶν), when in the 9th century accents were added in manuscripts, may have been influenced by the grammatical gender of these words, but it has also been attributed to a supposed bias on the part of scribes against the idea of a female apostle.[14]
Epp in his book Junia: The First Woman Apostle gives a textual critical evaluation of the history of Junia in the Greek text and also the search in non-Biblical Greek literature for "Junias"─the alleged masculine form of the name which has not been found in writings from New Testament times and only rarely thereafter.[15] He points out that the earliest copies of the Greek texts for Romans 16:7 are majuscules (capital letters). There are no accent marks in them. The importance of this is that the gender of the name depends on the accentuation. Hence, the earliest texts are inconclusive and we are very dependent on Patristic interpretation for the gender of Junia. When the minuscules (using lower case Greek letters) appeared, Junia was accented with a character which indicates the feminine form of the name. The feminine form of the name appeared in Erasmus' critical Greek text in 1516 and continuously thereafter in all other critical Greek texts, with the exception of Alford's 1858 edition, until 1928 when Nestle inexplicably (read: he didn't explain it in the apparatus) went to the masculine form. This remained the case until the 1998, when the edition just as inexplicably went back the other way and the masculine was dropped as even an alternative (not in the apparatus). Hence, the textual weight seemed to be for the feminine name Junia, which text critic Eldon Epp in 2005 believed most scholars accept.[15] However, the masculine form is preferred in the UBS New Testament, 4th edition, which matches the 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland text (the latest editions of each text).
Two Greek manuscripts have "Julia" (clearly a woman's name) instead of "Junia(s)" in this verse. One is papyrus P46 of about the year 200. The other is the 13th-century minuscule manuscript catalogued as "6". "Julia" is also the reading in some Latin manuscripts, in one tradition of Coptic manuscripts and in Ethiopic manuscripts. Three Greek uncial manuscripts have the inverse substitution, ("Junia(s)" in place of "Julia") in Romans 16:15. This raises the question whether the proximity of the two names, "Junia(s)" and "Julia", on the same page is the reason why, in both cases, a few scribes replaced one name with the other. There are also tentative connections between Junia and Joanna,[Luke 8:3] suggesting that Junia could be the Latin form of the Hebrew Joanna. Thus, it is feasible that Junia is ‘Joanna.’[16]
Only one record of the male name "Junias" has been discovered in extra-biblical Greek literature, which names him as the bishop of Apameia of Syria. Three clear occurrences of "Junia" have been found. While earlier searches for "Junias" in Latin also yielded no evidence, it is reported that "Junias" has been found as a Latin nickname or diminutive for the name "Junianas", which was not uncommon both in Greek and Latin.[14] While this is a possibility, historical studies on the name "Junia" as a contracted form of "Junianas" has shown there are over 250 citations of the name Junia in antiquity all of which have been found to refer to women, with not one single case proven to be the abbreviated form of Junianus to Junia.[17] Meanwhile the name Junia is attested multiple times on inscriptions, tombstones and records; most notably, General Brutus’ half sister, Junia.[18]
Among the early Church Fathers, the United Bible Societies The Greek New Testament only cites Jerome as having read the name "Julia" in Romans 16:7 and Chrysostom as having understood the name as the feminine "Junia". Chrysostom wrote: "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"[19] Although among the Fathers, "an almost universal sense that this was a woman’s name surfaces—at least through the twelfth century, ... this must be couched tentatively because although at least seventeen fathers discuss the issue (see Fitzmyer’s commentary on Romans for the data), the majority of these are Latin fathers,"[14] and "Junia", but not "Junias", was a common enough name in Latin. It has even been claimed that the first known mention of Junia as a male is by Aegidus of Rome (1245–1316), though this ignores the evidence of the Greek manuscripts about how the name was actually interpreted at least from the 9th century onward.
The Coptic Synaxarium reading for the twenty-third of Bashans identifies Junia the Apostle as being a man of the tribe of Judah
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  #1676  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:07 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

The story of Junia is a sad one. Beginning in the 13th century, her memory was not only diluted, but the fact that she was an “outstanding” female apostle was hidden by medieval copyists who changed her name to the more male-sounding “Junias.” Since the truth has been recovered that Junia was clearly a woman, modern-complementarian translators and scholars now try to strip Junia of the title “apostle,” by concluding that she was merely known by the apostles or favored by the apostles, but could never have been deemed an apostle herself. This is a NEW interpretation. The fact that Paul was commending two apostles was never debated, only whether Junia was female or male, and even that debate did not start until the 13th century. The historical reading of this verse has always been that Junia was both a woman and an apostle. It’s important to note that the early church fathers who conceded to these facts were by no stretch of the imagination “egalitarians.” Many held degrading beliefs about women and their “divinely designated” position in life. But even they could not deny that Paul deemed this woman Junia to be an apostle, and an outstanding one at that.

Two Complementarian Views

1. Junia was really a man

The more hardcore-complementarians still refuse to admit that Junia(s) is a woman, even though for the first 1300 years of church history, ALL commentators of Romans 16:7 believed Junia to be a female AND the male name “Junias” did not even exist during Paul’s era. On the other hand, the Latin/Roman-female-name “Junia” is found in ancient literature of Paul’s time and found nearly 250 times in ancient Roman inscriptions.

The first person to expound on Romans 16:7 was the early church father, Origen of Alexandria (185-253), who understood the name Junia to be feminine. Other prominent church fathers and theologians recognized “Junia” as a woman: Jerome (340), who translated the Latin Vulgate; Hatto of Vercelli (924-961), a bishop and Greek scholar; Theophylact (1050-1108), and Peter Abelard (1079-1142), a French theologian and philosopher. Not a single commentator on the text until Aegidius of Rome (1245-1316) assumed the name to be masculine. Aegidius offered no textual or historical evidence to support his belief that Junia was a man. He simply made the passing comment about how “these two men” must have been honorable.

John Chrysostom, church father from the 4th century, made it crystal clear that Junia was both a woman and an apostle:

“To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles—just think what a wonderful song of praise that is…how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.”

Even though the historical and textual evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of rendering “Junia” as a feminine name, complementarians like John Piper and Wayne Grudem cling to the writings of the notoriously disturbed church father, Epiphanius, to “prove” that Junia could have been a man. Epiphanius (315-403) wrote the “Index of Disciples,” in which he lists Junia as one “of whom Paul makes mention [and] became bishop of Apameia of Syria.” Since Epiphanuis wrote the phrase “of whom” as a masculine relative pronoun, Piper and Grudem conclude that Epiphanius believed Junia to be a man. Regardless of what Epiphanius believed about the gender of Junia, it should be noted that he also believed Priscilla was a man! He once wrote that “the female sex is easily seduced, weak and without much understanding. The Devil seeks to vomit out this disorder through women… We wish to apply masculine reasoning and destroy the folly of these women.”
Needless to say, Epiphanius is hardly a credible source. His own writings prove he succumbed to the worst brand of degrading patriarchy. He so despised women that he sought to edit influential ones right out of the scriptures.

New Testament scholar Bernadette Brooten comments on the fictitious male-name Junias:

“To date not a single Latin or Greek inscription, not a single reference in ancient literature has been cited by any of the proponents of the Junias hypothesis. My own search for an attestation has also proved fruitless. This means that we do not have a single shred of evidence that the name Junias ever existed. The feminine Junia, by contrast, is a common name in both Greek and Latin inscriptions and literature. In short, literally all of the philological evidence points to the feminine Junia.”

It’s important to note that not only is the male name “Junias” nonexistent within the New Testament manuscripts, but it does NOT appear even once in ANY ancient manuscripts, sacred or secular.

The feminine name Junia, however, is found in ancient Greek literature AND appears nearly 250 times in ancient Roman inscriptions.

Bible Scholar Richard Bauckman links the Latin/Roman name Junia to the Greek name Joanna. This would explain the title of apostle. In “Women in the Heart of God” by writers from Christian Thinktank, Bauckman’s theory is elaborated upon:

Recent argumentation by Bauckham makes a strong case that not only is this word-noun-name feminine, but also that it is the Latin-ized version of Joanna (one of Jesus’ traveling companions/disciples—cf Luke 8.3 and 24.10)! Joanna was the wife of Herod’s steward, and would have had a Latin/Roman name for purposes of administration. This identification would make the most sense of the name, her relation to Rome, her being ‘in Christ’ before Paul, and of her apostolic status (as a witness of Jesus’ deeds and resurrection—Acts 1).

2. Junia was merely known by the apostles

This interpretation asserts that Junia was most likely a woman, but was simply well known to the apostles or highly favored by the apostles, but was not an apostle herself. However, if this was the correct and most natural understanding of Romans 16:7, then copyists would not have stooped so low as to blatantly changing the text. This was a desperate and theologically-motivated alteration to change the gender of Junia without any textual or historical warrant. If the verse simply meant that a woman was well known by the apostles, there would have been no controversy, no deceptive tactics to mask Junia’s gender in male trappings in the first place. No one on either side of the debate ever questioned whether Paul was deeming these two apostles, but only whether or not Junia was male or female. So, this new interpretation emerged as a last ditch effort in the face of indisputable evidence that Junia was, in fact, a woman. It aims to disprove the notion that a woman could ever be a rightful apostle.

A report from BBC on Adronicus and Junia pointed out:

“The most natural way to read the Greek phrase is that both were apostles; some modern interpreters have rejected this reading mainly because they presuppose that women could never fill this office.”

The original Greek (nor the historical reading) does not support this complementarian interpretation. It’s basically grammatical gymnastics employed to cast flimsy doubt upon the validity of a woman apostle.

The fact that Junia was imprisoned with Paul should tell us that this woman was a public figure who was considered a leader in the church. The whole point of Romans arresting and killing christians was to make an example of the boldest ones and most influential ones, so other christians would be deterred from following suit. Had this woman remained “silent” in the assemblies and never dared to preach/teach the gospel to men, it hardly makes sense as to why she would find herself behind bars. History bears witness to the fact that the large majority of christians captured, imprisoned, and martyred were public figures and leaders within the early church, men and women alike (more on that in an upcoming post).

Below are two excellent articles on Junia. Both examine the evolution of Junia’s name from feminine to masculine and the original wording of this passage in the Greek. I highly recommend reading both articles to get a better grasp on the implications of the original language and the ugly reality of how Junia’s gender was masked for nearly 8 centuries. These two articles take a more in depth look into the original language. They have done such an excellent job, that I feel no need to regurgitate their findings here.

Junia, A Woman Apostle By Dianne D. McDonnell
Junia, The Female Apostle: Resolving The Interpretive Issues of Romans 16:7 by Dennis J. Preato
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  #1677  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:08 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Here's a question. If it can be shown that Junia was a woman and deemed by Paul to be an apostle then I think the case of women preachers is closed.

Now, what if it can only be shown that it is highly likely that Junia was a woman that was deemed by Paul to be an apostle. Should someone take the very unlikely position that she was not a woman who was deemed by Paul to be an apostle just because it seems likely that 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy ban women preachers?

I don't have an answer... but this question is more a question about the proper process of biblical interpretation when we are dealing with ambiguous passages.
I wanted to add that there is a way of explaining any passage so that the passage can mean nearly anything a person wants.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
How amazing! I'm reading a book by Douglas Moo in which he destroys the notion of women in the 5-fold NT ministry! I've also interacted w/ him & daniel Wallace via email in which they dealt extensively w/ I Tim. 2:11-15 destroying the notion that this is referring to the "Home environment". Yes...I still have the emails! Try again!
I have the books not only by him, by Piper and many others...so I know what they believe.
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  #1679  
Old 02-16-2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Here's a question. If it can be shown that Junia was a woman and deemed by Paul to be an apostle then I think the case of women preachers is closed.

Now, what if it can only be shown that it is highly likely that Junia was a woman that was deemed by Paul to be an apostle. Should someone take the very unlikely position that she was not a woman who was deemed by Paul to be an apostle just because it seems likely that 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy ban women preachers?

I don't have an answer... but this question is more a question about the proper process of biblical interpretation when we are dealing with ambiguous passages.
Either way, objectivity is desired. Paul, in talking about Junia, is not establishing "women in ministry." So what we observe, is a picture of how the early church worked, not some type of didactic.

There are three primary Egalitarian views:

1) They will contend that women, indeed, participated in ministry in the early Church.

2) They conceded that women did not, but that the Church is always on the front end of progress and of societies that honor all people, so that in our society it would be a disservice to the message of Jesus if women were held back. In other words, they would use the cultural card.

3) There are many who insist, with exhaustive books, that the two primary texts used by Complimentarians were not even originally in the Text. This, to me, is a harder case to make -- though the evidence they have is compelling, it must be overwhelmingly unanimous to make such a conclusion. This would be similar to those who view Mt 28:19, Mark 16:16 and 1 John 5:7 (and others) as not part of the original letters.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:18 PM
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Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Jfrog, to me.... just to me... I almost tend to disagree with one of my favorite scholars, Gordon Fee, on this one. The "source of life" argument, I feel, loses it. There may not be hierarchy in the home (in the form of subservience and inequality), but there seems to be order. Children, women, man then God. The man seems to biblically be the "priest of the home." We know from scripture that husbands and wife's were submitted to one another in love, but that the man took the lead. He was the "first among equals" -- a citation from antiquity. This tells me, when assembling together, this same social order (which is cited in creation) applies in that setting.

To that end, I don't have any problem with women teaching, preaching, prophesying. I would, in this view, have a problem with them functioning as an elder over the congregation.

But my view is not settled, and nor do I believe this is a Gospel issue.
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