Can someone please tell me...?!

[Bishop1]

E N Bell
{1915}

D C O Opperman
1917
Chairman - Assembly of Apostolic Assemblies

A D Gurley, M H Hansford, H A Goss
{3 Big Time PCIers in early 1951}

[Bishop1]

# 1 - Beauty Hill Pentecostal Church
Youth Group
{Bishop1 is standing next to the wife of
Newfoundland's current UPCI Dist. Supt. -

# 2 - Alabama Pastor's Wife Wins First Place Title -
" Alabama's Fastest Watermelon Eater "

@ 3 - 1946 Bulla Road Revival at Mormingside
{One Mile Away From Notre Dame University}

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Bishop1

# 1 - Beauty Hill Pentecostal Church
Youth Group
{Bishop1 is standing next to the wife of
Newfoundland's current UPCI Dist. Supt. -

# 2 - Alabama Pastor's Wife Wins First Place Title -
" Alabama's Fastest Watermellon Eater "

@ 3 - 1946 Bulla Road Revival
{One Mile Away From Notre Dame University}

#2 was funny!

[Bishop1]

# 1 - 1951 Church Broadcast

# 2 - 1938 Apostolic Faith Church
{57 Rena St Grand Rapids Michigan}

# 3 - 1971 Bible School Trip
{Stone Mountian Georgia}

# 4 - " M A R R I A G E "
{ 3rd Time Is A Charmer }


Bishop1

[josh]

Originally Posted by Sam

It is my understanding that all of the men listed in Barb's post were what we refer to as PCI one-steppers. In other words, they believed that a person was saved/regenerated at repentance and then that person was expected to go on and submit to water baptism in Jesus' name and to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

We don't really know how many ministers were one-steppers and how many were three steppers when the UPC was formed in 1945. I think people have been less than truthful when they have quoted numbers. Maybe they just didn't know or maybe they wanted to show that those of their particular viewpoint were more numerous than the others.

It is my understanding that when the UPC was formed the following were one-steppers:
Howard Goss, Gen. Supt.
E.E. McNatt, Sunday School Director
Wynn Stairs, Foreign Missionary Director
plus some of the district overseers, elders, or supts (whatever they were called) like Bro. Greer, Bro. Yadon and maybe more.

When the first issue of the Pentecostal Herald came out in 1945 it stated that articles presenting either opinion on the new birth were acceptable as long as they were not written in an argumentative way.

As far as I understand, in the new UPC organization the Bible Schools in Tupelo and Portland were one-stepper in doctrine, the schools in St. Paul and Tulsa were three-stepper in doctrine, and the school in Stockton was open to either opinion.

It is my understanding that over the years the one-steppers were minimized, trivialized, ostracized, demonized, marginalized and generally just plain despised by the three-steppers. As the three-steppers gained more political clout the one-steppers were pretty well pushed out. The Fundamental Doctrine Statement was modified in 1972 in an attempt to oust them. Then the Affirmation Statement was pushed through based on lies, deception, bullying, intimidation and disregarding the rules set forth in the bylaws to further remove these folks from the UPC.
A sad commentary on the situation is that an otherwise respected elder like Bro K. would lie like he did to get that AF through, thus silencing many good men and women in the faith.

Bro Sam, regardless of who the affirmation statement wound up affecting, this statement is patently false. I'm not sure where you got your information, but I sat in the living room of the late primary author of the affirmation statement and discussed it at length with him.

Neither the PCI doctrine nor its adherents were even on his radar. Though he was an elder pastor at the time, he got in church later in life and started preaching about age 40. His concern was with the mindset highlighted by a particular Charisma article on how a younger generation of preachers was seeking to change the direction of the UPC. Like it or dislike it, that was the motive. Like it or dislike it, there was never an underhanded or hidden agenda in his efforts.

The fact that men left who were still advocates of the PCI reflects more on their character (which I respect) than on some attempt to oust them. To be honest, their very existance came as a surprise to some of the backers of that statement.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by josh

Bro Sam, regardless of who the affirmation statement wound up affecting, this statement is patently false. I'm not sure where you got your information, but I sat in the living room of the late primary author of the affirmation statement and discussed it at length with him.

Neither the PCI doctrine nor its adherents were even on his radar. Though he was an elder pastor at the time, he got in church later in life and started preaching about age 40. His concern was with the mindset highlighted by a particular Charisma article on how a younger generation of preachers was seeking to change the direction of the UPC. Like it or dislike it, that was the motive. Like it or dislike it, there was never an underhanded or hidden agenda in his efforts.

The fact that men left who were still advocates of the PCI reflects more on their character (which I respect) than on some attempt to oust them. To be honest, their very existance came as a surprise to some of the backers of that statement.

Son, I dont know who sold you these bag of goods or where you get off implying that Sam is a liar ... but for just a brief moment, my Kansasian hermano, take a seat.

1. Sam and Elder Epley are the resident historians up in here. From time to time Bishop 1 makes guest featured appearances.
It's my understanding that Sam's Apostolic library would put most big bawlers to shame. He's a walking encyclopedia.

2. Are you sure about Westberg not intending the AS to be about the New Birth ....

Let's disregard the multitude of witnesses that attest to this in Fudge's book.

Men, from this site, of integrity and experience have said quite the opposite.

A guy you may know ... called Coonskinner has stated that Westberg himself attested to the fact that the AS was about the New Birth ...

Here are some of his quotes:

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

PP,

The AS was engineered by Paul Price, L.E. Westburg, and David Gray.

I only met Brother Gray once, and didn't know him personally, but knew Brother Westburg very well, and still talk to Paul Price at least once a month, sometimes more.

The primary reason for the AS was the strengthening of the New Birth message, because there were men like Mickey Friend and his ilk that did not believe it.

I spoke with these men at length.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I was/am personally very well acquainted with two of the three framers of the AS resolution.

In their minds, it was about the New Birth, not standards.

Reformed Dave, whose father is an Apostolic icon, just the other day admitted that Price did quite a bit of, in his words, "arm-twisting".

.... and everyone, their mother, and he himself, knows that the honorable Bishop Kilgore mis-spoke on the floor at Salt Lake City ....

so either your facts are PATENTLY FALSE ... or these men are also LIARS.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by Bishop1

# 1 - 1951 Church Broadcast

# 2 - 1938 Apostolic Faith Church
{57 Rena St Grand Rapids Michigan}

# 3 - 1971 Bible School Trip
{Stone Mountian Georgia}

# 4 - " M A R R I A G E "
{ 3rd Time Is A Charmer }


Bishop1

Love that 1.picture, I see a bass fiddle and a archtop guitar,wonder who the mandolin picker was ?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by Bishop1

E N Bell
{1915}

D C O Opperman
1917
Chairman - Assembly of Apostolic Assemblies

A D Gurley, M H Hansford, H A Goss
{3 Big Time PCIers in early 1951}

YEAH THOSE PCIERS WERE LIBERAL I SEE A TIE CHAIN AND A TIE CLASP.

[Amos]

Originally Posted by Barb

Yes, I am bringing it up intentionally. Evidently, you did not not pick up the heartbeat of my original post.

I have questions...questions I might not have had IF this information had been forthcoming from the beginning of time.

And weak on the doctrine, eh?!

Well, they were strong enough on it to be considered worthy of aligning in 1945 and preached in our churches and helped build an orgnization only to be kicked to the curb as a forbidden subject by the powers that be today...interesting, my friend...very interesting.

Absolutely not true.

You are a sweetheart, Sister, but there is no diabolical plot to expunge their memory from the record.

They just lived a long time ago and a long way away from most of the American Apostolics.

I had heard of most of them and read about some of them by the time I was 21 lo those many years ago.

We get our holiness roots from the Wesleyans, but nobody mentions them much, nor knows many of their names, if any...and yet there are no alarms sounding over them.

No point in creating drama where there really isn't any basis for it.

[Amos]

Originally Posted by Barb

As I was out running an errand this afternoon, I thought about the posts above and wondered if anyone could expound on this fear factor...

No fear, Barb.