Do we have to pay tithes? - Page 16

Originalist · #**151** 04-19-2018, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I believe at Malachi 3:6 this whole context is widened from just the Levites. "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

And then 3:9 says "Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, this whole nation. He's not talking to the nation of Levi bro, that makes no sense. And then 10 where He says "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house,

And this is where your theory falls flat. The people did not bring tithes into the storehouse. Only the Priests could do that. God never accused the people of not bringing tithes into his storehouse because he never told them to in the first place. He was condemning the Priests of robbing what should have gone to the storehouse. But even if you are right, it is irrelevant. NONE of this is a command for the New Testament church. We don't have priests, or Levites, or storehouses, or a physical nation, or a temple. Please come into the New Covenant and thanks.

and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it." The storehouse was created during the surplus in the book of Chronicles. The only people that benefited from it being full were 1. The Levites, 2. The feasts, and 3. The poor. Which is another reason why I believe this is speaking to "the whole nation." Everyone. Otherwise it wouldn't have brought the punishment that it did upon them. But I do believe the priests were a problem. But not the whole complete problem. Do to the consequence it brought that He didn't speak to them for 400 years; this included everyone not just the priests. It doesn't make sense in light of all that.

Originalist · #**152** 04-19-2018, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n david

"even this whole nation" is referring to the curse, not the robbing.

Gill: "even this whole nation; the sin was become general, and therefore a general judgment was inflicted on them: Grotius thinks, that the people seeing the priests withhold the tithes from the Levites, they refused to pay them to them, and so the sin became universal. Kimchi observes, that in other sins charged upon the nation, the people were not all alike guilty, but in this which respected the tithes and offerings they were. "

Amen.

1ofthechosen · #**153** 04-19-2018, 05:01 PM

Even verse 11 shows it "And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts."

The Levites had no inheritance, so they had no fields. They stood to profit off of the increase of the people, so they could attend to the work of the Tabernacle. I think what Gill is saying is the truth.

1ofthechosen · #**154** 04-19-2018, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

If anything was ever robbing and God and stealing from God bro it always is. That's the moral law bro. It goes with Deuteronomy 22:5, that was a abomination to Him then it still is. He said in the law it was holy until Him. He then said them not doing it was robbery. That speaks for itself.

We became Spiritual Israel bro. Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

1ofthechosen · #**155** 04-19-2018, 05:09 PM

This is saying exactly what I'm saying "ill: "even this whole nation; the sin was become general, and therefore a general judgment was inflicted on them: Grotius thinks, that the people seeing the priests withhold the tithes from the Levites, they refused to pay them to them, and so the sin became universal. Kimchi observes, that in other sins charged upon the nation, the people were not all alike guilty, but in this which respected the tithes and offerings they were. "
.
Meaning and saying explicitly "Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, this whole nation." The "even" is italicised so it's not there. That is what it says. And that above is what the scholar says.

Evang.Benincasa · #**156** 04-19-2018, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

In verse 5 He says "Saith the Lord of Hosts." End statement to the Levites. Verse 6 He shows who He is talking to "therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Otherwise why does it not say "ye sons of Levi"? The context has widened. And it shows in verse 9 "Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, this whole nation."

Look at 3:18 it shows it well "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not." Letting you know he's talking to all the people. That they could discern between God's true ministers and the Levites.

But it was the Levites fault. You mention 2 Chronicles 31:10, you do know that the blessing was as great as in the time of Joseph. That there was so much that they had excess. When you read the rest of the chapter, you find it was up to the Levites to make sure everyone was taken care by distribution. In Malachi it is the Levites who are charged with holding back. You said it yourself that the Levites were the only one to hold authority and access to the vaults. Also the power of distribution. Not the people. The people are under the curse because the leadership didn't follow the law.

Evang.Benincasa · #**157** 04-19-2018, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

This is saying exactly what I'm saying "ill: "even this whole nation; the sin was become general, and therefore a general judgment was inflicted on them: Grotius thinks, that the people seeing the priests withhold the tithes from the Levites, they refused to pay them to them, and so the sin became universal. Kimchi observes, that in other sins charged upon the nation, the people were not all alike guilty, but in this which respected the tithes and offerings they were. "

Bro? Who held access and distribution?

1ofthechosen · #**158** 04-19-2018, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro? Who held access and distribution?

The Levites but as the scholar said "Kimchi observes, that in other sins charged upon the nation, the people were not all alike guilty, but in this which respected the tithes and offerings they were. " So they weren't bringing anything to fill up the storehouse. But apparently the Levites were taking the rest. Everyone, all, the whole nation, was robbing God. All the sons of Jacob as the text say's. Not just the sons of Levi. But also the sons of Levi, I'm not denying that.

Tithesmeister · #**159** 04-19-2018, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I'm not trying to convert you but to say that cattle and produce wasn't worth anything is crazy. You can't believe that. What were the priests doing? Selling the cattle for money.

Selling cattle that were tithed was not lawful. The levites and priests were forbidden to do so.
Brother, do you remember when I told you that practically everything that you believe about tithes is false?
I thought I should remind you, one more time. This is another example. It was illegal to sell a tithed animal, unless it was unclean, and thus illegal to eat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

It would come in the front door and go back out the back door sold to someone else. That's what they were doing in Jesus day in the Tabernacle. That means cattle was as good as money. I didn't say it was money, but it had trade value. If your denying that, it has to be just to make a point.

I have heard this story too, but it is not in the Bible, so if this was going on it was not legal to do. This is a fabrication, that was made up to make sense of why Jesus was so angry. I believe there is a better explanation, but that is a story for another thread.

Originalist · #**160** 04-19-2018, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Even verse 11 shows it "And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts."

The Levites had no inheritance, so they had no fields. They stood to profit off of the increase of the people, so they could attend to the work of the Tabernacle. I think what Gill is saying is the truth.

As NDavid said, the nation was guilty for not speaking up, but this verse is still referring to the Priests. I guess they thought they were not allow to question what the pastor did with the tithes. God would withhold blessing on the whole nation for their (the Priests) sin.

But again, there is ZERO relevance here for New Testament giving.