Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Oh, I don't want to forget you PO and Sister Amanah.

Thank you as well.

rpd, Costeon and Esaias are doing the heavy lifting here, but thanks!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

rpd, Costeon and Esaias are doing the heavy lifting here, but thanks!

You are doing a great job with the questions, and pointing things out.

[Pressing-On]

Esaias' post #132 lists out the Bible versions. I put them in three groups:


Cut:
CEV
GNT

CUT OFF
NIV
NLT
ESV
Berean
NASB
Christian Standard Bible
Holman
ISV
NET
God's Word
New American Standard 1977
Darby Bible Translation
Weymouth New Testament


Shorn/Shaven which indicates being totally cut off:

I am putting this full translation on the top as it seems to be the best Translation conveying what shorn and shaven really mean:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.

Jubilee
King James 2000
New Heart English Bible
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
American Standard Version
King James Version
English Revised Version
Webster's Bible Translation
World English Bible
Young's Literal Translation


RECAP:

Cut Off - 13 Translations
Cut - 2 Translations
Shorn/Shaven - 11 Translations
Shorn/Bald - 1 Translation - although should be included in Shorn/Shaven

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Of course a woman shouldn't cut her hair. It would be a disgrace to her. The apostle plainly said it would be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaved. What I am saying is that the apostle isn't trying to make sure the women folk weren't cutting their hair, because they weren't. He was trying to get them to stop praying or prophesying uncovered.

Could you clarify something please? In one of your posts you helpfully listed many translations of the 1 Cor 11.6. Many, mostly older, translations read "shorn." Most read "cut off." I may have overlooked some, but I only noticed two that read "cut her hair," which happen to be the ones I had seen on rdp's blog. In addition to those you have listed, I had also mentioned in a previous post the NAB and NJB and the NRSV and REB, in order to cover basically all the major versions that are popular among all the various strains of Christianity. As far as I can tell, then, two say "cut her hair."

When I read this post of yours, because so many that you had included read "cut off," and since "shorn" is generally used to mean "cut off (hair)," hence that generally being the first definition in English dictionaries, I thought you were pointing out to 1ofthechosen that the verb keiro that has been the focus of the debate, had only rarely (twice) been understood by translators as rdp and 1ofthechosen understand it (based on BDAG, etc.), i.e., simply to cut.

But when you then said in this current post "of course a woman shouldn't cut her hair" and say it would be a disgrace to her, clearly referring to v. 6, I was confused. Could you clarify why you say of course she shouldn't cut her hair, apparently basing this on v. 6, when you just had provided so much evidence from the translations that the verb in v. 6 probably doesn't mean just "to cut or trim"?

And regarding my emphasis on the translations, to all those reading these posts I want to say, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, as others have characterized my posts, but since it seems overall that my position has been characterized by others as me standing alone in solitary splendor ignorantly rejecting the mountain of clear evidence from Greek experts, I'm just trying to show that hundreds of other Greek experts--the committees of scholars who produced these translations--do not accept that the verb means simply to cut at all or to trim. They are not ignorant of BDAG or other resources. All I can conclude is that they read these lexical works, noted that, say, BDAG only lists one verse (1 Cor 11.6) to support the definition "to cut", then studied how the verb is used in the rest of the Greek NT and the Greek OT (the Septuagint) and elsewhere in Koine Greek and concluded that the verb means more than "cut" but rather "cut off."

In short, the meaning of v. 6 is not so clear cut. :-) The verse is ambiguous, i.e., capable of different interpretations, and therefore we have to look at other passages in the Bible, using the principle that Scripture interprets Scripture, that is, the clear illuminates the unclear, to try to illuminate what is obscure in 1 Cor 11.6. I guess I have apparently overlooked the supporting verses that other posters have provided that show that keiro unambiguously means "to cut." I know a lot of examples have been provided from Greek lexical resources like BDAG that say "to cut," but what again are the other passages in the NT where this verb only means to cut or where woman are explicitly told not to cut their hair? I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse. As far as I know, the OT does not contain such a command, and I've shown how this verb in the Greek OT means "cut off." So I would like to see the NT evidence for this meaning.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Esaias' post #132 lists out the Bible versions. I put them in three groups:


Cut:
NLT
CEV
GNT

CUT OFF
NIV
ESV
Berean
NASB
Christian Standard Bible
Holman
ISV
NET
God's Word
New American Standard 1977
Darby Bible Translation
Weymouth New Testament


Shorn/Shaven which indicates being totally cut off:

I am putting this full translation on the top as it seems to be the best Translation conveying what shorn and shaven really mean:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.

Jubilee
King James 2000
New Heart English Bible
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
American Standard Version
King James Version
English Revised Version
Webster's Bible Translation
World English Bible
Young's Literal Translation


RECAP:

Cut Off - 12 Translations
Cut - 3 Translations
Shorn/Shaven - 11 Translations
Shorn/Bald - 1 Translation - although should be included in Shorn/Shaven

This is helpful, Pressing-On. Thanks!

I would only add regarding the NLT that it, I guess, is mixed, because it reads, "Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering." Or would it be better to simply read the second part "have her hair cut" in light of the first part "cut off all her hair" and conclude that the translators must have meant "have her hair cut (off)"?

[Costeon]

And I would add the NRSV, REB, NAB, and NJB to the cut off category.

[Costeon]

Also, someone mentioned, I believe rdp, the famous Greek scholar Bill Mounce to support a point that was being made. I noticed in Mounce's Reverse Interlinear that he translates keiro as "she should cut her hair short." Mounce's intro to NT Greek is probably the most widely used intro textbook.

[Costeon]

A couple more:

The Complete Jewish Bible: "For if a woman is not veiled, let her also have her hair cut short; but if it is shameful for a woman to wear her hair cut short or to have her head shaved, then let her be veiled."

The Amplified Bible: "If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head."

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Could you clarify something please? In one of your posts you helpfully listed many translations of the 1 Cor 11.6. Many, mostly older, translations read "shorn." Most read "cut off." I may have overlooked some, but I only noticed two that read "cut her hair," which happen to be the ones I had seen on rdp's blog. In addition to those you have listed, I had also mentioned in a previous post the NAB and NJB and the NRSV and REB, in order to cover basically all the major versions that are popular among all the various strains of Christianity. As far as I can tell, then, two say "cut her hair."

When I read this post of yours, because so many that you had included read "cut off," and since "shorn" is generally used to mean "cut off (hair)," hence that generally being the first definition in English dictionaries, I thought you were pointing out to 1ofthechosen that the verb keiro that has been the focus of the debate, had only rarely (twice) been understood by translators as rdp and 1ofthechosen understand it (based on BDAG, etc.), i.e., simply to cut.

But when you then said in this current post "of course a woman shouldn't cut her hair" and say it would be a disgrace to her, clearly referring to v. 6, I was confused. Could you clarify why you say of course she shouldn't cut her hair, apparently basing this on v. 6, when you just had provided so much evidence from the translations that the verb in v. 6 probably doesn't mean just "to cut or trim"?

And regarding my emphasis on the translations, to all those reading these posts I want to say, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, as others have characterized my posts, but since it seems overall that my position has been characterized by others as me standing alone in solitary splendor ignorantly rejecting the mountain of clear evidence from Greek experts, I'm just trying to show that hundreds of other Greek experts--the committees of scholars who produced these translations--do not accept that the verb means simply to cut at all or to trim. They are not ignorant of BDAG or other resources. All I can conclude is that they read these lexical works, noted that, say, BDAG only lists one verse (1 Cor 11.6) to support the definition "to cut", then studied how the verb is used in the rest of the Greek NT and the Greek OT (the Septuagint) and elsewhere in Koine Greek and concluded that the verb means more than "cut" but rather "cut off."

In short, the meaning of v. 6 is not so clear cut. :-) The verse is ambiguous, i.e., capable of different interpretations, and therefore we have to look at other passages in the Bible, using the principle that Scripture interprets Scripture, that is, the clear illuminates the unclear, to try to illuminate what is obscure in 1 Cor 11.6. I guess I have apparently overlooked the supporting verses that other posters have provided that show that keiro unambiguously means "to cut." I know a lot of examples have been provided from Greek lexical resources like BDAG that say "to cut," but what again are the other passages in the NT where this verb only means to cut or where woman are explicitly told not to cut their hair? I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse. As far as I know, the OT does not contain such a command, and I've shown how this verb in the Greek OT means "cut off." So I would like to see the NT evidence for this meaning.

You have presented your view very well. RDP has also presented his view. As Benincasa stated, this is an excellent discussion!

I hope you keep posting and I hope that rdp keeps up with the dialogue. It's all good!

It is also not necessary for anyone to win this debate. I for one and not looking for a winner. We just want to read both sides of the issue and to flesh it out to where it makes better sense. This thread has come as close as I have ever seen it - making sense. That is what this forum is for.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Costeon

This is helpful, Pressing-On. Thanks!

I would only add regarding the NLT that it, I guess, is mixed, because it reads, "Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, she should cut off all her hair! But since it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or her head shaved, she should wear a covering." Or would it be better to simply read the second part "have her hair cut" in light of the first part "cut off all her hair" and conclude that the translators must have meant "have her hair cut (off)"?

Thank you. I kept thinking I had one version in the wrong place. I will go back and edit my post, making that 13 for OFF and 2 for cut. You are right. THanks!

You can go back into your response to me and edit that to read correctly. Please do as you forwarded my post. We want it to be correct.