born of water

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

These "last days" anti-baptism arguments from Protestants are actually a step farther from the truth, and a continuation of the eroding and ultimately the eradication process of water baptism that the Catholics started!!!

You are not referring to me. I maintain baptism is a pre-new birth experience.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

They actually are more correct than many folks here that think you can be saved prior to water baptism. You realize that the Catholics changed the method of baptism, but some folks here have completed the job by saying baptism is not necessary to remit sins. They say that you only need the Spirit....shame, shame!

Baptism does not remit sin. We are baptized that our sins might be remitted....by Jesus Christ.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Baptism does not remit sin. We are baptized that our sins might be remitted....by Jesus Christ.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Sean

It is more than just a symbolic ritual. It is an OPERATION of GOD, made without hands!!!

For the record, I never said that baptism is just a symbolic ritual. Read my prior comments. You were writing earlier that people who have been filled with the Spirit are still spiritually dead until they are water baptized. I disagree with your position that one is spiritually dead until water baptism. It's imperative that they be baptized in Jesus name, but they have received the life of Christ within them. It's the Spirit that quickeneth and giveth life. One can be baptized and still be spiritually dead. Baptism by itself doesn't give life, however, it is part of God's new covenant plan, and the sin issue isn't completely taken care of until one has been baptized. We have to bury the old man, and going through the waters of baptism in Jesus name cuts us off from our past life of sin, however it takes the Spirit to give us the life of Christ. The Spirit is the life of Christ. They are synonymous.

Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

2 Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

For the record, I never said that baptism is just a symbolic ritual. Read my prior comments. You were writing earlier that people who have been filled with the Spirit are still spiritually dead until they are water baptized. I disagree with your position that one is spiritually dead until water baptism. It's imperative that they be baptized in Jesus name, but they have received the life of Christ within them. It's the Spirit that quickeneth and giveth life. One can be baptized and still be spiritually dead.


Exactly, that is my point....Acts 2:38 JOINS water and Spirit baptism into 1 plan....38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. One part of the plan is not complete without the other. Men have dissected and separated the 2 parts, saying one part is all that is needed. With only 1 part, you are only "partially" saved, which is NOT saved at all.


Baptism by itself doesn't give life, however, it is part of God's new covenant plan, and the sin issue isn't completely taken care of until one has been baptized.

Life cannot come for the born again believer until death occurs......
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:.....
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
A man is not FREED from sin unless he is baptized.

We have to bury the old man, and going through the waters of baptism in Jesus name cuts us off from our past life of sin, however it takes the Spirit to give us the life of Christ. The Spirit is the life of Christ. They are synonymous.

Amen

Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

2 Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

Romans 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."

The point to be made is that some folks here think that a man is saved BEFORE water baptism.
That is absurd according to the N.T. scripture.
There is a TREMENDOUS amount of spiritual work to be done by God upon water baptism. Some folks here can't see that.
There is a spiritual operation/circumcision happening to those that are baptized....
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
If a man is not baptized(while having the Spirit), they are not spiritually circumcized, neither are they OFFICIALLY in Christ.
The only way into Christ is to be baptized into Christ....
Romans 6: 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

The fact of the matter is a man can have the Spirit, but not be "IN" Christ, if they refuse to be baptized.

Believe it or not, some folks think that Spirit baptism REPLACES water baptism. They think the "death stuff" or having an "operation made without hands" is scary!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Baptism does not remit sin. We are baptized that our sins might be remitted....by Jesus Christ.

Really???

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Hmmm.....Kinda looks like sins are remitted by the Lord when the name of Jesus is used during baptism...

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Really???

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Hmmm.....Kinda looks like sins are remitted by the Lord when the name of Jesus is used during baptism...

"For the remission of sins" simply means "in order that your sins might be forgiven". And who forgives sins? The context here is not even orally invoking the name by the baptizer (which he should do) but one being commanded to repent and to be baptized into the authority (name) of the one Peter had been preaching about that God made to be both Lord and Christ. Is not an incantation or word taking away people's sins. It is GOD forgiving sin of those who are obedient to the message because they yielded to the Lordship of Christ by repenting and being baptized.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You are not referring to me. I maintain baptism is a pre-new birth experience.

May I ask you this?

Do you believe that a man is saved before he is baptized, if he recieves the Spirit?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

What business scripturally do we have praying for people to receive the Spirit who have not been baptized? e

Actually, we dont....

We only OBSERVE the Spirit falling on them as we lead them to the water baptismal process.

We must preach the message that was originally intended for us to preach....

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.(look at the underlined comparison of Luke and Acts)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[Sean]

In the great, Holy Ghost revivals we are seeing these days, most of them have been baptized already, and many others are intending to be. The Spirit just fills those that have not yet been baptized, in order to influence them to do so.