Is there going to be a rapture????

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Carl

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. Sounds like a rather severe justice. A person dies never to live again. Does God have to torture someone to be just?

it should be noted, in here somewhere, that God considers many or most 'dead' that we would define as 'alive.' Just sayin

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Carl

We will have eternal salvation but that does not mean the process of being saved continues throughout eternity. Likewise the result of judgement will be eternal but not eternally taking place. The idea of an eternal torment comes from the immortal soul belief.

well, wadr, it sounds as if you are postulating--no prob with that; but then i would ask, "How do you know?" If we are in agreement that your final resting place is (heaven on) earth, as Scripture states, and not heaven as decreed by some religion, then those remarks seem to lose their relevance?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Romans 11:22

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

iow, Understand I AM.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Technically that is what RAPTURE means. Catching away of the body into the sky. Actually it is restricted to the thought of being CAUGHT UP into the air.

hardly an original heresy...
[I]20Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly./I]

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Lafon

MTD, it appears that you're "hung up" on the meaning or intent of a single word; in this instance its "destroy," while completely disallowing consideration of the "righteousness" of God. I would ask that you consider this:

Man is comprised of three components, or parts. These are; body and soul and spirit (or breath). When Moses was inspired of God to write about the creation of mankind, he first described that component or part of every human being which was created "in the image and after the likeness of God," that is, the eternal, invisible SOUL. I describe the SOUL as an "eternal" part of every human being, for it is THIS component of man which God created "in his own image," and as the Scriptures explicitly assert, God is an eternally existing, or ever-living Spirit. Therefore common logic lets us know that the SOUL of man is also eternally existing, and as such it will always exist; hence, it is an IMMORTAL entity.

For anyone to even suggest, much less explicitly assert, that God will cause the eternally existing SOUL of the wicked to be consumed in the lake of fire, is a clear indication they're not properly discerning what the inspired written word of God asserts about the eternal fate of the wicked. Would not common logic and reasoning cause one to conclude that that which is incorporeal, that is, the SOUL of mankind, cannot be consumed by fire, or by any other means for that matter? For one to embrace and propagate such an erroneous interpretation of our Lord's words found recorded in Matthew 10:28 (as you've done), dispenses with, or otherwise seeks to render void God's promise of eternal life.

Why should one who perhaps has no desire to live forever, even expend a moment of their time upon the earth in the present life to heed and obey God's commandment, when they can simply endure for their allotted time here, die and then after a period of time spent in the lake of fire, simply cease to exist? Don't you realize that THIS is precisely what you're saying by publicly asserting that the SOUL of mankind is not immortal?

This is why I believe in the immortality of the SOUL of mankind, which will not, nor can it ever be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

Warmest regards.

Lafon,

Your post is talking men's concepts and logic. Matt 10:28 is a direct statement by Christ. I am not hung up on the word destroy but knowing it's contextual meaning is the first step in opening the eyes of darkened understanding.

Remember how many years you believed in the Trinity? This works the same way. At first it seems shocking. But when you do an honest study of eternal judgment you can begin to see that you and I were duped.

And by no means does the teaching end at Matt 10:28. It is the starting place as Dueteronomy 6:4 was for Oneness.

That's why I said a few days ago it deserves it own thread as its not merely an afterthought concerning whether there will be a rapture.

Peace and love.

[Michael The Disciple]

This is why I believe in the immortality of the SOUL of mankind, which will not, nor can it ever be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

And yet both the old and the New Testament is clear that the soul of man is not immortal.

Old Testament.

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

New Testament.

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

If you start with the RIGHT FOUNDATION you come up with the truth!

Peace and love.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And yet both the old and the New Testament is clear that the soul of man is not immortal.

Old Testament.

4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

New Testament.

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

If you start with the RIGHT FOUNDATION you come up with the truth!

Peace and love.

I readily agree that one must "start with the RIGHT FOUNDATION," however one MUST first insure that that "foundation" aligns with the "foundation" which God has established, and His "foundation" is "RIGHTEOUSNESS." (See Psalms 89:14; 97:2 & 145:17)

Righteousness, simply defined, implies the "equal application of justice, or fairness" in actions and the administering of judgments. And as I'm confident you would be quick to agree, God is "just" and "fair" in all that He does, and never, ever does anything which might be construed as a display of partiality. He is not a respector of persons, neither can He be.

I've stated this in an effort to have you pause and consider how unrighteous it would be, that is if your understanding had merit, for God to grant one of the souls of mankind that He had "created in his own image," to be sufficiently worthy of eternal life in the bliss of heaven, yet "destroy" (or cause to be deminished to nothing; cease to exist) another soul by its placement in the lake of fire. Would not such an act, if true, represent an act of unrighteousness by God?

[Michael The Disciple]

God is fully righteous in his decrees and judgments. I will always agree with that statement.

Paul certainly never taught burning in a lake of fire for billions of years. He never mentions it ONCE.

He believed like Yeshua that the wages of sin is DEATH.

Read this slowly and carefully.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Do you see it? Paul said the wages of sin is DEATH.

On the other hand the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE.

[Michael The Disciple]

Righteousness, simply defined, implies the "equal application of justice, or fairness" in actions and the administering of judgments.

Well consider this then in light of that.

A young man of 18 is raised in a Church going home. He has never yet been saved. He goes out driving one night hits a telephone pole and dies.

He is (in your view) immediately carried to Hades where he begins burning in fire. Then after burning at least 1000 years in the Millenium the judgment day arrives. He is pronounced guilty and cast into Gehenna fire.

A million years goes by burning every second. Then very slowly another million years goes by. Burning and being tormented every second of the way.

But wait! He has not even begun to suffer yet. He will be burning in flames for a the next BILLION YEARS!

Now this guy was 18 but would it matter if the person was 70? Billions more years go by and still tortured with flames every second. AND YET he has not yet begun to burn, correct?

Does this sound RIGHTEOUS?

I do believe the wicked will burn in Hell. A lot of them will be Church going people who believed the devils lies "no one can be perfect". Our God is just and righteous and knows exactly how much each one should be punished.

EVERY MAN WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS!

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well consider this then in light of that.

A young man of 18 is raised in a Church going home. He has never yet been saved. He goes out driving one night hits a telephone pole and dies.

He is (in your view) immediately carried to Hades where he begins burning in fire. Then after burning at least 1000 years in the Millenium the judgment day arrives. He is pronounced guilty and cast into Gehenna fire.
A million years goes by burning every second. Then very slowly another million years goes by. Burning and being tormented every second of the way.

But wait! He has not even begun to suffer yet. He will be burning in flames for a the next BILLION YEARS!

Now this guy was 18 but would it matter if the person was 70? Billions more years go by and still tortured with flames every second. AND YET he has not yet begun to burn, correct?

Does this sound RIGHTEOUS?

I do believe the wicked will burn in Hell. A lot of them will be Church going people who believed the devils lies "no one can be perfect". Our God is just and righteous and knows exactly how much each one should be punished.

EVERY MAN WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS!

I NEVER said that (the statement highlighted in red), nor even alluded to such a thing in any manner whatsoever!

In fact, I do NOT believe any soul, including the body it inhabits, will be cast (alive & fully awake) into the lake of fire UNTIL the end of the coming 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth, after which the 2nd resurrection and final judgment transpires.

If such a thing were true, then it surely would represent an act of unrighteousness by God, for neither Satan nor any member of his demonic band have been cast there yet, and they were the first in rebellion against God!

Satan and every member of his demonic band, together with all of the wicked among mankind (both body and soul), will be cast into the lake of fire at the same time. That will be God's righteous justice for willful, sinful rebellion against Him.

Did not even the demons that our Lord encountered in the tombs they cried out, "saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matthew 8:29, KJV)

Both Peter and Jude gave witness to the veracity of this fact (see II Peter 2:4 & Jude 6, KJV).

Just as God's "righteousness" prohibits Him from casting Satan or the demons into the lake of fire "before the time" appointed, His fairness and equality of justice (righteousness) likewise prohibits Him from casting a wicked man there before the last day as well.

Have you never read (in Hebrews 6:1-2, KJV) wherein the writer enumerates the six elements which comprises "the principles of the doctrine of Christ" and includes ETERNAL JUDGMENT?

The word "judgment," as it is here used, could also be properly interpreted to imply/infer "suffering" which awaits all of the wicked dead who will be included as participants in the second resurrection at the end of the coming millennium, and their "suffering" is explicitly stated as ETERNAL, that is, everlasting, non-ending!

This, again, indicates that the invisible SOUL of mankind is immortal!