Do you believe the innocent party in a situation

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Can't say much more than - we are responsible, to some degree, for what we can cause our husband or brother/sister in Christ to be tempted by and thereby falling into sin. We are culpable also.

I absolutely agree with that part. We are responsible for the wrong that we do.

[*AQuietPlace*]

BUT (you knew there'd be a but ) if I ever commit adultery, I won't point fingers at my husband, no matter what he's done. I might charge him with the faults he had in making our marriage a mess (speaking hypothetically ), but I wouldn't blame him for my choice to choose adultery. That would be on my head alone.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that if you are angry, you are defrauding/depriving - on purpose. I don't want to present myself as an innocent party as I have been a "defrauder" at various times and actually made him pay me for my services just because he was annoying me. It was all in fun, but I did keep the money. That possibly could be classified as a sin. I'm not sure if I ever repented over that or not.

Really? We've had disagreements that were so severe, neither of us wanted to be in the vicinity of the other. LOL!!! We are complete opposites, and when we butt heads, it's a serious thunderstorm. In the interim, while we both calm down, it would be inconceivably violating (to me) for him to suddenly demand sex before I've had a chance to calm myself.

I really have to disagree with you on this point. When the relationship is upset by hurt or anger, sex takes a sideline until the emotional intimacy is restored. Not purposefully on anyone's part, as a means to force an apology or resolution!!!! But simply because how can you have sex when you're mad at each other? I really don't understand that.

What man would want to force himself on his wife when she's upset anyway? How selfish. He should be trying to resolve the differences first, so they can both enjoy the experience.

Yes, IMO, part of the blame would be to your husband. Notice I said, "part of the blame". BUT, I don't think an isolated incident is a good example. I believe the scripture is speaking more on the lines of a pattern in the marriage as I don't think Paul would have focused on that if he didn't hear or see a continuous problem he was trying to get the hearers to avoid. He does speak of a virgin getting married who will certainly have "trouble in the flesh".

I did speak about this to my husband and referenced something you said in an earlier post - "some women just do not like sex." He agreed, but I'm laughing inside because I was thinking, "How would you know?" LOL! I won't elaborate on that point, but really! LOL!

Oh, now that is a silly question, PO. I have numerous specific examples, (which I refuse to share) and I've been in the company of women since I was a child--some who talked about sex in a positive way, and some who didn't. Some who shared details that let me know they KNOW what fun sex can be, and some who shared other details that showed their inhibitions and/or ignorance.

As I said earlier, there are numerous possible REASONS for women not liking sex, including an inadequate partner, abuse, ignorance, a perception of it being dirty, etc.

If you're trying to ask about the state of my bedroom, I can tell you that it's very, very good, so I am NOT speaking from personal experience. In fact, shortly after we were married, I embarrassed myself (and my father), because he was teasing me about the bedroom. I can't remember what he said exactly, but it really irritated me, and I turned to him and shouted [something along the lines of], "I'll have you to know, I enjoy sex--a LOT--and it's none of your business!" Followed by me turning beet red, he laughed, and I stalked out of the room trying to retain my dignity.

Thinking back, he was probably trying to check on my well being, and I'm sure I gave him the answer he needed.

That's never been an issue for me, and I can honestly say I have NEVER defrauded my husband. However, there have been times when neither of us were interested, because there was something between us that needed to be resolved. Should that be given attention immediately? Of course. It's wrong to hold a grudge, and wrong to deliberately remain unreachable in the face of a possible resolution. I view anger as an emotion, though--not a deliberate state. Once it's passed, it's passed. You don't really control your feelings, but you can control whether you punish your husband for causing those negative feelings. To me, that involves appearing angry and remaining cold after the emotion has passed, in an effort to teach him a lesson or something. I do think that's wrong, and that's where you enter into the defrauding arena.

...As I stated above, I don't believe Paul would have addressed an "isolated" incident, but rather a pattern of defrauding. That would be a grievous sin, IMO. That is much like setting a cookie jar on the counter, with the lid off, and telling a child who is really hungry - DO NOT even think about touching it!

I agree with you - the marital relationship is, at best, a bit complicated. That is the reason I am focusing on the "defrauding/depriving". My question still remains - Is there a deeper admonition or meaning here to focus on, such as, true submission and humility? True and deeper love and forgiveness in all things? True forgiving 7 x 70? Do you see where I am going with this? I am seeing a disconnect in the Christian world, for the most part, and I wonder if it could be in not reaching back to the subject of "defraud you not one another".

As Cindy stated earlier - does it cover more than intimacy? Can it include conversation, etc. ? Sometimes my mind is somewhere else and my husband says, "You are not even listening to me!" It is so important to him that I pay attention to him in every way! I am so different from him as being alone is very important to me. That caused a lot of problems for us when we first started out. I think it took him 10 years to realize it didn't mean that I didn't love him. I just need to go inside myself and be alone. It's just my way. So, yes, I think that "defrauding" entails more than just physical intimacy.

It could, since the primary meaning of "benevolence" is kindness, followed by the meaning conjugal duty.

I agree with your scripture, but will also point out that the "defrauder" will also give account of himself/herself.

True.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Really? We've had disagreements that were so severe, neither of us wanted to be in the vicinity of the other. LOL!!! We are complete opposites, and when we butt heads, it's a serious thunderstorm. In the interim, while we both calm down, it would be inconceivably violating (to me) for him to suddenly demand sex before I've had a chance to calm myself.

I really have to disagree with you on this point. When the relationship is upset by hurt or anger, sex takes a sideline until the emotional intimacy is restored. Not purposefully on anyone's part, as a means to force an apology or resolution!!!! But simply because how can you have sex when you're mad at each other? I really don't understand that.

What man would want to force himself on his wife when she's upset anyway? How selfish. He should be trying to resolve the differences first, so they can both enjoy the experience.

Abigail - focus - we are talking about a continual pattern here. Not a few instances that happen to crop up in our marriages. Hello!

Oh, now that is a stupid question, PO. I have numerous specific examples, (which I refuse to share) and I've been in the company of women since I was a child--some who talked about sex in a positive way, and some who didn't. Some who shared details that let me know they KNOW what fun sex can be, and some who shared other details that showed their inhibitions and/or ignorance.

Not a stupid question. He doesn't have experience with women. So, your statement is stupid for saying I am asking a stupid question.

As I said earlier, there are numerous possible REASONS for women not liking sex, including an inadequate partner, abuse, ignorance, a perception of it being dirty, etc.

And poor diet.

If you're trying to ask about the state of my bedroom, I can tell you that it's very, very good, so I am NOT speaking from personal experience. In fact, shortly after we were married, I embarrassed myself (and my father), because he was teasing me about the bedroom. I can't remember what he said exactly, but it really irritated me, and I turned to him and shouted [something along the lines of], "I'll have you to know, I enjoy sex--a LOT--and it's none of your business!" Followed by me turning beet red, he laughed, and I stalked out of the room trying to retain my dignity.

Thinking back, he was probably trying to check on my well being, and I'm sure I gave him the answer he needed.

Uh, no, I don't particularly care about your private intimacy, TYVM

That's never been an issue for me, and I can honestly say I have NEVER defrauded my husband. However, there have been times when neither of us were interested, because there was something between us that needed to be resolved. Should that be given attention immediately? Of course. It's wrong to hold a grudge, and wrong to deliberately remain angry in the face of a possible resolution.

If you were mad and didn't want to be with him, you have defrauded him and are delusional. LOL! Not sure if 100% agreement to abstain, across the board, every time something was between you would stack or stand up. I can stay mad a whole lot longer than my husband ever could, if I wanted to. I find that women tend to take longer to get over things, as a general rule. That's why they keep rehashing things and the husband is ready to move on. LOL!

True.

Awww, some agreement! Cool!

[rgcraig]

So, if defrauding for a time (as the scripture says) is for a week because you are upset it's not a sin if you only do it that once?

If it's a sin, it's a sin - - no pattern needed.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

BUT (you knew there'd be a but ) if I ever commit adultery, I won't point fingers at my husband, no matter what he's done. I might charge him with the faults he had in making our marriage a mess (speaking hypothetically ), but I wouldn't blame him for my choice to choose adultery. That would be on my head alone.

I don't agree with that.

Let's take a man that is verbally abusive. She loves the man, but he continues to hurt her and scare her a little with his rough demeanor through their years of marriage. She meets another man, who is her equal in some ways and brings out in her the things she wanted from her husband. She confesses to her husband that she had met someone else, telling him that she warned him this could happen to them, but he never listened and didn't try to treat her better - until - it happens.

He immediately has his eyes opened to his ways and goes on the mend - happily ever after.

I know someone this actually happened to. It took something like this instance to open his eyes. So, I place some of the blame on that husband, not that she was without fault on her part. But, as far as I know, it has ended well.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

So, if defrauding for a time (as the scripture says) is for a week because you are upset it's not a sin if you only do it that once?

If it's a sin, it's a sin - - no pattern needed.

That's what I believe he is addressing - a pattern that could be established. It wouldn't make sense to address something that happens maybe once or twice - even per year.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Abigail - focus - we are talking about a continual pattern here. Not a few instances that happen to crop up in our marriages. Hello!

So your stance is that if a woman (or man) denies their spouse continually it's sinful, but if they do it once or twice, it's not?

Not a stupid question. He doesn't have experience with women. So, your statement is stupid for saying I am asking a stupid question.

Sorry, I thought you were referring the "How would you know" in MY direction--not your husband. My mistake.

And poor diet.


Uh, no, I don't particularly care about your private intimacy, TYVM

LOL!!! Well, sorry for providing it, but the "how would you know" felt like you were saying...oh, never mind.

If you were mad and didn't want to be with him, you have defrauded him and are delusional. LOL!

You're not getting it. Honestly. I've never been in the position of being angry with Jeff and having him ask me for sex. He doesn't act like he wants to have sex either, when he's mad. So how am I delusional? Usually we stomp around the house, acting like total brats, and bickering until we either have it figured out, or agree to disagree, and then peace is restored.

Are there actually men out there who try to have sex with their wives when their wives are angry or upset? At least, visibly so?

If that happened to me, and I was still upset for some reason, I would try to resolve it FIRST. Are there women who have sex while they're angry? Rather than saying, "__________, I'm upset with you. Can we talk about this first?"

That's not to say that when Jeff's just being his irritating self, I can't set that aside. LOL!!! I've done that more than once, as I'm sure many couples do. I'm talking about REAL anger and issues, not pretend, and an actual problem--not just a personality conflict or being annoyed that he left his socks on the floor.

Not sure if 100% agreement to abstain, across the board, every time something was between you would stack or stand up. I can stay mad a whole lot longer than my husband ever could, if I wanted to. I find that women tend to take longer to get over things, as a general rule. That's why they keep rehashing things and the husband is ready to move on. LOL!

The fact that you say "can stay mad" makes it look deliberate. Do you get and/or stay angry deliberately? I don't. This is probably a personality difference. I just don't stay mad very long, so that further illustrates it. In our house, Jeff takes longer to get over things than I do, so that may be why this problem doesn't exist.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't agree with that.

Let's take a man that is verbally abusive. She loves the man, but he continues to hurt her and scare her a little with his rough demeanor through their years of marriage. She meets another man, who is her equal in some ways and brings out in her the things she wanted from her husband. She confesses to her husband that she had met someone else, telling him that she warned him this could happen to them, but he never listened and didn't try to treat her better - until - it happens.

He immediately has his eyes opened to his ways and goes on the mend - happily ever after.

I know someone this actually happened to. It took something like this instance to open his eyes. So, I place some of the blame on that husband, not that she was without fault on her part. But, as far as I know, it has ended well.

You didn't state whether or not she actually committed adultery. If she did, she sinned, she was wrong.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't agree with that.

Let's take a man that is verbally abusive. She loves the man, but he continues to hurt her and scare her a little with his rough demeanor through their years of marriage. She meets another man, who is her equal in some ways and brings out in her the things she wanted from her husband. She confesses to her husband that she had met someone else, telling him that she warned him this could happen to them, but he never listened and didn't try to treat her better - until - it happens.

He immediately has his eyes opened to his ways and goes on the mend - happily ever after.

I know someone this actually happened to. It took something like this instance to open his eyes. So, I place some of the blame on that husband, not that she was without fault on her part. But, as far as I know, it has ended well.

I still don't see it. I'm really trying to wrap my head around it.

Was the husband in your scenario wrong? Well, he wasn't giving all that he could to make the marriage what it should be, but STILL......she was the one that make the decision to meet someone else. It just seems like an excuse to me in a way.

The vow was for better or worse.