Can Women Pastor ?

[HRea]

Originally Posted by rdp

Did the woman at the well deliver a biblical sermon to believers, or simply witness about the Messiah:________?

Besides, you did not interact w/ the plain commands of I Tim. 2:11-15, or I Cor. 14:34.

Actually I dealt directly with the result of the ministry. Many (and I'm NOT accusing you - RDP - of this) would invalidate all that has been accomplished.

What you are missing is the concept of headship. Everywhere in the Bible that a woman is a God called preacher, her husband is mentioned. In this manner, she is not usurping the authority of her husband (or father in some cases) but is ministering in his name and is covered by her man-head. This is Biblical with many scriptures supporting this. Conversely, men should not minister in their own name either, but in Jesus' name, in order to be covered by their head.

Anytime we step outside God's perfect order (and His delegated authority to accomplish His will) there is trouble, whether man or woman.

So, to deal DIRECTLY with your questions...

The woman witnessed/testified to the unbelievers, this makes her an evangelist (which is, of course, part of the 5-fold ministry).

Interacting with your references, Biblical women preachers were covered by their husbands or fathers (Deborah, Hulda, The Prophetess (Isaiah's wife), Priscilla, Philip's daughters). This is why their "head" was specifically mentioned when they were introduced.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by HRea

Actually I dealt directly with the result of the ministry. Many (and I'm NOT accusing you - RDP - of this) would invalidate all that has been accomplished.

Trinitarians also have results & even miracles. Moses had results from the water that flowed from the rock, does this somehow justify their actions?

What you are missing is the concept of headship. Everywhere in the Bible that a woman is a God called preacher, her husband is mentioned.

What woman was "God called preacher" in the NT church:_________? Scripture reference pls. I would kindly affirm that YOU are the one missing headship, since "Adam was first formed, then Eve." And it's precisely this reason that Paul explicitly forbids women from the NT ministry. Not being ugly here, pls. unserstand.

In this manner, she is not usurping the authority of her husband (or father in some cases) but is ministering in his name and is covered by her man-head. This is Biblical with many scriptures supporting this.

That's what I've been waiting for now for about 3 months. Just one single Scripture supporting NT women preachers. I don't see how in the world someone can justify the doctrine w/ verses as plain as I Tim. 2.

Conversely, men should not minister in their own name either, but in Jesus' name, in order to be covered by their head.

Anytime we step outside God's perfect order (and His delegated authority to accomplish His will) there is trouble, whether man or woman.

Amen. That's precisely the reason that I take the position that I do.

So, to deal DIRECTLY with your questions...

The woman witnessed/testified to the unbelievers, this makes her an evangelist (which is, of course, part of the 5-fold ministry).

Wow! What a stretch! So every woman who tells someone else about the Messiah is now in the "5-fold ministry"?????

Interacting with your references, Biblical women preachers were covered by their husbands or fathers (Deborah, Hulda, The Prophetess (Isaiah's wife), Priscilla, Philip's daughters). This is why their "head" was specifically mentioned when they were introduced.

And which of these women are said BY THE TEXT to be expositors of the Word to NT believers:________? Besides, I'm still waiting on you to exegete I Tim. 2:11-15.

Blessings!

[HRea]

Originally Posted by rdp

And which of these women are said BY THE TEXT to be expositors of the Word to NT believers:________? Besides, I'm still waiting on you to exegete I Tim. 2:11-15.

Blessings!

Wow! I can't believe you missed the point of my post so completely. And I thought surely that you, so adamant about your position, could separate the preacher from the results, according to Philippians 1:18. But you seem so intent on extending this condemnation of women preachers to those who have come to believe through their declarations. My brother, that is sad.

Now, I think you're purposefully attempting to confuse the issue by using the term "preacher" to mean something other than what is Biblical. What you really mean is "pastor" or "teacher". This is a Biblical "preacher":

Romans 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

And, yes, the woman at the well was preaching Jesus to the men of her city and they believed.

For scriptural reference concerning women preachers/teachers, you already know (yes, you already know) that Priscilla is an excellent example.

Acts 18:26
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Now concerning the headship issue, why do you perverse this? You know very well that this is a NT Biblical principle, yet you attempt to dismiss this because it proves that there is a way a woman can preach and not be a usurper of man's authority. God, Christ, Man, Woman, Children. And that at every level, the one above covers the one below. With her husband's permission, a woman is not a usurper but is obedient to her head. How did you miss this simple NT Biblical principle?

Let's talk about the 5-fold ministry (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers). Which of these do you include in your definition of "Preacher" and which ones do leave out?

[Oskar]

Hi Guys, I will venture in here as I do feel strongly on this issue, yes RDP makes some great points, witnessing to five fold and 1Tim ect. However I admit that I long to see the five fold rise up again not just the apostolic and look forward to seeing woman as equals there. She MAY have been an evangelist or any other of the five fold doing what she did or just witnessing but 1Tim does need to be addressed as do other scriptures. We also have Pricilla and Aquilla, she is mentioned first and there are other woman that appear to be apostolic in the NT. So the practice appears to be different to part of the teaching. We also need to consider neither greek nor jew, male nor female in the word.

The scripture that says women are to submit to there husbands has a more important one before it, and that is that we are to submit to each other. " to this man will I look, he who has a broken heart and a contrite spirit", I don't think this man would have a problem with a woman working next to him.

Don't have all the aswers (ever) but fully support women in ministry, teacher to apostle. Regards Oskar

[rdp]

Originally Posted by HRea

Wow! I can't believe you missed the point of my post so completely. And I thought surely that you, so adamant about your position, could separate the preacher from the results, according to Philippians 1:18. But you seem so intent on extending this condemnation of women preachers to those who have come to believe through their declarations. My brother, that is sad.

W/ all due respect [& I mean that sincerely], I'm really not interested in your theology, or condescions....only the text itself. Not sure how Phil. 1:18 can be used to override the plainess if I Tim. 2, but whatever!

Now, I think you're purposefully attempting to confuse the issue by using the term "preacher" to mean something other than what is Biblical. What you really mean is "pastor" or "teacher". This is a Biblical "preacher":

Before I address your verse below, allow me to point out that "Preaching" & "Teaching" are used interchangeably & synonymously in the Bible [& this precisely what Paul forbids in I Tim. 2]. See the last few verses of Acts for evidence of this, but there are sooooooooo many more references of this [just quoting from memory].

Romans 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

How does this invalidate, or have to do w/ I Tim. 2:11-15? Have you ever heard of the "Fallacy of Neglected Aspect"? But while you're quoting from Romans, how about quoting, "Thou that preachest......Thou that teachest...." Is this describing different, or the same idea? Of course, preaching & teaching is the same thing, & this is exactly what Paul forbids in I Tim. 2:11-15.

And, yes, the woman at the well was preaching Jesus to the men of her city and they believed.

Sure witnessing can be considered a form of preaching, but not in the sense that it's used in modern vernacular, as in a woman delivering an exposition from the Bible to a public assembly of believers. Paul forbids this in very plain language.

For scriptural reference concerning women preachers/teachers, you already know (yes, you already know) that Priscilla is an excellent example.

Actually Prisca is not an example AT ALL, of a NT woman preacher to a congregation of believers....let alone "an excellent example." Tell us, does the text state that she "preached" to believers? No!

Acts 18:26
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Now concerning the headship issue, why do you perverse this? You know very well that this is a NT Biblical principle, yet you attempt to dismiss this because it proves that there is a way a woman can preach and not be a usurper of man's authority. God, Christ, Man, Woman, Children. And that at every level, the one above covers the one below. With her husband's permission, a woman is not a usurper but is obedient to her head. How did you miss this simple NT Biblical principle?

What in the world are you talking about? Timothy W-A-S a Pastor/Apostle over others, & Paul explicitky commanded him not to allow women to "teach, or to excercise authority over a man." How much plainer can it possibly be????

Let's talk about the 5-fold ministry (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers). Which of these do you include in your definition of "Preacher" and which ones do leave out?

Who ever said "I leave out" any of the 5-fold ministry as preachers????? But I'm still waiting on your biblical example of a NT [or OT, for that matter] woman sermonizer to believers:__________? In sum, I have Bible for for my position, you do not.

Be blessed 'till tommorrow!

[Falla39]

Acts 2: 16-18

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


Dosn't sound like the women were going to be silenced to me.

[Sister Alvear]

THIS IS IN A PUBLIC ASSEMBLY...THE CHURCH

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


AND ANYONE THAT HAS A KNOWLEDGE OF FOREIGN LANGUAGES KNOWS IT IS TALKING OF MEN AND WOMEN...THE WORD BROTHER INCLUDES SISTERS....JUST LIKE IN ALL LATIN LANGUAGES...

[Sister Alvear]

AND IT SAYS...

Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.


A MAN OR WOMAN CAN SPEAK AND EDIFY THE CHURCH....THE CHURCH....MEN AND WOMEN ....

[Sister Alvear]

AND IT SAYS... speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord...

WELL WE SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER IN THE CHURCH THROUGH OUR GIFTS...

[Sister Alvear]

His own nt writer would not even be qualified to be an elder....lol....