Divorce and remarriage

[Truthseeker]

When I hear about so marriage problems/failures in light of the M&D subject being difficult It sure makes me very thankful for my marriage. If something happened to her leaving me single again I would have a hard time marrying someone with an ex husband. It just doesn't feel right to me.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by james34

Originally Posted by james34 View Post
Does fornication count before coming to God? How about lying, stealing, murdering? How about adultery?
Remember from the beginning it (the writ of divorcement) was not so.

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, (nor adulterers). nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

>>>And such were some of you:<<<.../// before being washed, before Christ. So with all of these sins mentioned you believe in repentance / stop the sin, except with adultery?

but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

....these instructions to the church( after the resurrection of Christ)
Says that before Christ some were adulterers. In what way were they adulterous (define adultery in this context) before Christ, how are they no longer adulterous after being in Christ?

Whatever your answer , it has to be the same way that they are no longer liars, thieves , extortioners, etc.

I did answer that. The Law, which Christ upheld, made it clear that the second marriages were valid. Christ is simply pointing out that God allowed this because of hard hearts that had no regard for innocent women. Thus, the second marriages are considered to be as a result of the first marriages being adulterated out of the will of God. Christ was not making new law. Rather, he was clarifying and articulating the original law. James, do you deny that God validated the second marriages mentioned in Deut 24? Please answer the question.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

When I hear about so marriage problems/failures in light of the M&D subject being difficult It sure makes me very thankful for my marriage. If something happened to her leaving me single again I would have a hard time marrying someone with an ex husband. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Your comment brings up another side to this coin. Society has completely changed from the time of Christ. The failure rate for second marriages is higher than the rate for first marriages. Western society is no longer fertile ground for a successful marriage. For starters, women don't "need" men anymore for livelihood. Marriage is about "happiness." Like you, I would also be hesitant to marry a divorced lady. I say that not because I think it would be a sin to do so, but because the failure of her first marriage would create doubt that she truly had what it takes to be a wife. My real point, though, is to point out that Christ's words cannot be used to condemn all second marriages after a divorce. Christ was explaining the original intent of Law of Moses in this regard and we must remember who Christ's audience was when reading these passages.

[james34]

Marriage and Divorce

3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder....... 7They say unto him,....................WHY?...................
...........did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives.

.....(: but from the beginning it was not so ........

- It was never Gods will ( according to Jesus) for a spouse to be put away. As a matter of fact the Pharisees even asked Why? Because according to ( their understanding of Jesus words) they took him to say it wasn’t Gods will.
- Gods will predated the existence of the law.
- This is the only place ( Matthew 19) where the “ fornication clause” is used.
- Every other place, death is the only way to be freed from the law of marriage.
- But let’s look at the disciples interpretation of Jesus’s words.



Matthew 19:10
His disciples say unto him,
(If the case),


- Question: What is the case?
- Answer: Having a spouse who is a fornicator.

If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is ......NOT GOOD to MARRY.

11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men:

and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.
- Some in order to be saved , to please God, live as a eunuch!

He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by james34

Marriage and Divorce

3The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder....... 7They say unto him,....................WHY?...................
...........did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives.

.....(: but from the beginning it was not so ........

- It was never Gods will ( according to Jesus) for a spouse to be put away. As a matter of fact the Pharisees even asked Why? Because according to ( their understanding of Jesus words) they took him to say it wasn’t Gods will.
- Gods will predated the existence of the law.
- This is the only place ( Matthew 19) where the “ fornication clause” is used.
- Every other place, death is the only way to be freed from the law of marriage.
- But let’s look at the disciples interpretation of Jesus’s words.



Matthew 19:10
His disciples say unto him,
(If the case),


- Question: What is the case?
- Answer: Having a spouse who is a fornicator.

If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is ......NOT GOOD to MARRY.

11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men:

and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.
- Some in order to be saved , to please God, live as a eunuch!

He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

And Paul is clear that only those with a specific gift from God can make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom's sake. Jesus was not speaking of divorced people in that text. And indeed Christ evoked that which was before the Law, "from the beginning." But he STILL upheld the Law. He did not make a new Law or negate Deut. 24. You would have us believe that one minute, the innocent women who had been forced to remarry after being dumped were innocent in the eyes of God one second and the very next second after Christ's words in Matthew 19 they were suddenly condemned sinners living in a perpetual state of adultery. You think that because you are horrible at interpreting scripture.

[james34]

Originally Posted by Originalist

And Paul is clear that only those with a specific gift from God can make themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom's sake. Jesus was not speaking of divorced people in that text. And indeed Christ evoked that which was before the Law, "from the beginning." But he STILL upheld the Law. He did not make a new Law or negate Deut. 24. You would have us believe that one minute, the innocent women who had been forced to remarry after being dumped were innocent in the eyes of God one second and the very next second after Christ's words in Matthew 19 they were suddenly condemned sinners living in a perpetual state of adultery. You think that because you are horrible at interpreting scripture.

You are comparing 2 completely different scriptural points , when you compare
- the following was in reference to Jesus speaking on fornication and adultery.

.... there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake,


....but the scripture you reference, Where Paul said every man hath his proper gift , was referring to those who were eligible marriage candidates but chose rather to remain single , knowing they could do more for the Lord.

Matthew was a by necessity as in the only way to be saved situation.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by james34

You are comparing 2 completely different scriptural points , when you compare
- the following was in reference to Jesus speaking on fornication and adultery.

.... there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake,


....but the scripture you reference, Where Paul said every man hath his proper gift , was referring to those who were eligible marriage candidates but chose rather to remain single , knowing they could do more for the Lord.

Matthew was a by necessity as in the only way to be saved situation.

Jesus was speaking in the present tense, not the future tense. Who was he speaking of?

[james34]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Jesus was speaking in the present tense, not the future tense. Who was he speaking of?

Those who had already placed themselves in a saved position by obeying the scripture and remaining unmarried, if they had a living spouse.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by james34

Those who had already placed themselves in a saved position by obeying the scripture and remaining unmarried, if they had a living spouse.

Obviously it is God’s will that couples would not divorce.

BUT . . .

Are you saying that fornication is not a valid reason for divorce?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by james34

Those who had already placed themselves in a saved position by obeying the scripture and remaining unmarried, if they had a living spouse.

Uh, no.

The "hard saying" Jesus spoke of was a remark regarding the disciples' comment, "It is better that a man not marry." Jesus concurred and Paul echoed that in I Corinthians 7. The Law was clear that men could divorce and remarry. Thus they would have had no concept that doing so would send them to hell or that it was a matter of salvation to remain single if one had a living spouse they were divorced from. How easy it is to refute your claims. Context, context, context.

What "scripture" would they have been obeying at that point that said to be saved a divorced man could not remarry if he had a living spouse? The scripture said nothing of this. It affirmed that their second marriages were valid and forbade reconciliation if the estranged wife married another. Yet you refuse to answer any of these points. No surprise.