left upci yr ago and still messed up

[Hoovie]

I don't have any problem with standards when taught with balance and avoidance of a legalistic approach.

I went to a non denominational prayer meeting the other night, and realized I take MUCH greater issue with the "It's God's will you be healthy" teaching than any standard I have heard preached.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Some of it is extra biblical, subject to interpretation, treated as a heaven/hell issue, sometimes expressed with an exclusive/elite/judgmental attitude towards anyone who doesn't absolutely measure up . . .

But when it's over and done, it's time to move on, get over it, put it behind us, not lettinig the mistakes of some who were just trying to preserve religion the way it was taught to them trip us. It's like parenting, some of what you learned from your parents was good, some was off base. But you know they were trying to protect you because they cared. You take what is good, right, scriptural and continue on with it. You leave what was tradition, unprofitable, not sensible behind. You move on and continue your walk with God.

We have this treasure in earthern vessels, the content of the vessel is pure, perfect and desirable, the vessels are flawed humanity, subject to error.

But when we trip and fall, are hurt and confused, this is when the enemy of our souls comes in to tell us to throw everything away. This is when we are in a dangerous place, but we pray and read our bible and forgive and find our path forward with the help of God.

You see, part of the problem is that I am not too sure about the bolded part. I am convinced that many who "abuse" are far more concerned (whether they admit it, even to themselves, or not) about their own little kingdom then about those they lord over.

And I don't have any deep seated emotional pain from any of the standards themselves I was forced to follow -I never had a desire to wear a dress or grow my hair long or on my face (which I was too young to do anyways at the time). I guess the pain, if you want to call it that, that I still feel is the fact that I WAS "forced" to follow them. My parents were like the pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers who raised me in their early religious zeal to the exact wishes and specifications of the pastor.

OK, I misspoke early. There was ONE standard that I absolutely detested and has shaped my thoughts and actions to this very day. The standard implemented that one shall attend each and every church service no matter how many there are or how long they last.

[Amanah]

maybe I should say in my case I think the people in authority cared, still do care about me.

But you are right, they way we obeyed them was . . . I don't know how to say it I have such mixed feeling about it.

I still think that our passion and zeal for God brought along with it a deep move of God. I don't know how to untangle the single minded devotion to God that I felt back then from the results of that devotion: Many souls coming into the kingdom, being baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost.

I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them.

I'm read these boards and people talk about the grace of God, and how it's ok to do many of the things that we were taught not to do.

If you drink and smoke and immerse yourself in movies and entertainment, and neglect prayer, bible, fasting, church, and devotion to God, can you still have the same results?

does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?

Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Amanah

maybe I should say in my case I think the people in authority cared, still do care about me.

But you are right, they way we obeyed them was . . . I don't know how to say it I have such mixed feeling about it.

I still think that our passion and zeal for God brought along with it a deep move of God. I don't know how to untangle the single minded devotion to God that I felt back then from the results of that devotion: Many souls coming into the kingdom, being baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost.

I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them.

I'm read these boards and people talk about the grace of God, and how it's ok to do many of the things that we were taught not to do.

If you drink and smoke and immerse yourself in movies and entertainment, and neglect prayer, bible, fasting, church, and devotion to God, can you still have the same results?

does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?

Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.

Yes, so true Amanah! Your words as always are real and speak from your heart.

I have tangled in my own heart with these very same issues. It seems that the mighty moves of God that we seen at the turn of the century are now being replaced with imitations of the real thing... because there is not a true hunger for Jesus anymore, just a need for blessings, and miracles and such...

There are many people I know who will never pray themselves, read their Bible, or anything, but guaranteed, if things go wrong in their life, who do they want to pray for them and beg God to heal, bless, and help them when they're in need, but someone who has been in the throne room of God.

You see, people today really don't want any sacrifice on their part but they want the blessings.

There is sacrifice involved, and there is a need for our fleshly lusts and desires to be crucified, if we really want God's spirit to have free reign in our lives. Why is fasting such a blessing when you do it? It is because you are able to get your flesh out of the way, and just allow the spirit of Jesus to move in your life, and without sacrifice, I see no gain.

All this easy grace, easy believism, prosperity doctrine, no sickness, no worries no pain... all that is a LIE from Satan himself!

Where does the above fit in with taking up your cross and following Jesus? Thinking we are to experience, no pain, no suffering, no problems, no worries just because we are a Christian is a LIE from Satan himself.

I believe we will see miracles, signs, and wonders again when the we fall to our knees and fall in love with the Christ who died on Calvary, who suffered for us, and realizing that suffering is a part of being a Christian. Not one of the apostles ever said it wasn't a part of following Christ. Where have we gotten the idea that we should have no pain, sickness, temptations, trials, and tribulations???

From Satan himself... because he knows that if the church is as Laodicea was, in need of nothing... he is winning, and the church is no longer the church.

Amanah.... so true in what you said, that there is something that the American church has lost along the way.... but Jesus is alive and well, and his church is alive and vibrant too. Your spirit attests to this and others here on this board too.... The true church has never been the majority, but always the minority...

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I don't have any problem with standards when taught with balance and avoidance of a legalistic approach.

I went to a non denominational prayer meeting the other night, and realized I take MUCH greater issue with the "It's God's will you be healthy" teaching than any standard I have heard preached.

Apples and oranges.

The personal belief that is more feminine for women to wear dresses=Health is a blessing from God.

You will go to hell if you wear pants=You don't have faith if you are not healed.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by weloveour3sons

In reality there are people in the UPC churches who disagree with the "standards" but stay because they have grown up UPC and don't want to be "excommunicated". Many of these people deep inside know how you feel and wish they could reach out to you without the repercussions they may encounter from others within "the church". I'm sorry you are going through this-- I really am. I went through it as well many years ago. I can tell who the true Christians really were, however, as I have reconnected with them and they do not judge me or consider me "a sinner". They realize that I still am filled with the Holy Ghost and cannot argue with the Spirit God has placed inside of me. Give it some time and then try to connect with those you feel will not judge you and who you really feel were true friends. There really are some wonderful, caring people in the UPC. My parents and many of their friends (and mine) are some of those people. Hugs and Blessings to you!

Thanks!

The closest I get to Apostolic fellowship is right here on AFF!

[Savedbygrace!]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree and "standards" as opposed to "modesty" is when you start measuring the cuff or skirt lengths. That's when standards can turn ugly.

Ohhhh if you guys only knew.....skirts had to be 3 inches below the knee when seated. Sleeves had to cover the elbow. Certainly NO SPLITS, even below the knee - the girls who did wear splits were guilty of taunting men and boys with the 'now you see it, now you don't' show. Colored hose drew attention to the legs so they were also a no-no. Only 8 curls were allowed in your hair. For awhile we could not wear any gold - even on our shoes (buckles) - not even little girls - when black patent leather shoes with gold buckles were the style. That was one of the here today gone tomorrow standards. The preacher began allowing gold watches so long as they were not 'gaudy'. Then he retired and the new preacher only allowed silver - back to no gold. Years have passed since then and I hear that now the men have to wear a certain color shirt with a tie - no colored shirts allowed. Oh, and mixed race marriages were not allowed - heaven's no! However, when the pastor's daughter decided differently - well, let's just say it's ok now.

Suffice it to say......thank the Lord for my CURRENT church )

Disclaimer: None of the comments in this post are meant to put down any person or religion - they are simply experiences in my life - which have thankfully brought me to where I am today. I have a closer walk with God today than I ever have (although I am human and have a long way to go) - I enjoy reading my bible (NIV*gasp*). I compare scriptures to the KJV which IS the most tried and true version - it is simply more complicated to wade through - and heaven knows I never managed to read my bible faithfully when I was forbidden to read any other version. Now I look forward to it. Imagine that.

Thoroughly enjoying this thread - keep it going

[tv1a]

@ Hoovie, if it's not God's will for us to be healthy why do we go against God's will and take aspirin for headaches, go to doctors when your sick? Why do you exercise? The Bible says we are to take care of our bodies. There are more scriptures in the Bible about healing than there are about how long a skirt should be. If Jesus healed everyone who asked Him, we should believe he will do it today.

As far as the person leaving a upci church, the worst thing you can do is isolate yourself from a body of believers. The devil's tactic is to keep you on your own little island. The devil will try to guilt in saying you can't go to another chruch because the don't preach "truth". You need the fellowship of other christians, even if they don't believe the same way you do. You'll discover no denomination has a monopoly on truth. They believe their revelation trumps your revelation. Every denomination has a few screws missing in their theology somewhere along the way.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Amanah

...I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them...

does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?

Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.

Well put. I read from this that we should grasp "Understand I AM," and that what produced that wonderful fruit then is Spirit, sought after, and it is the seeking that is important. We tend to want to freeze life at what we consider an ideal moment, which denies
Understand I AM.

It is easy to believe that we have degenerated or devolved from that, when we actually have moved on, I'll say "outgrown" for lack of a better word, that specific model, maybe, but don't discount that you reflect this Spirit in your posts, for instance, and in a sense export it, which surely isn't as comfortable, but seems to be God's way? Which is lost in the defining anyway.

That church struck me as mired in religion, whereas the church of Amanah is much more comprehensible to me, for instance.

[jsipe]

I know what you're going through.
I'm not in the UPC church at this time. I had backslid and left. when I began seeking God once again, he lead me to a church that wasn't in the UPC.
What I've learned about this experance is that you can live and stand in the truth. Repentance, being baptized in Jesus Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost is all truth. Living Holy, you will find that you need that also. God will lead you where you need to be in that. I think what happens to the men and women of God is they get so caught up in preaching against sin that it weakens us. We also need encourgement.
I'm not saying that living an unholy life if right, because it isn't. But we also need to hear about compassion, and mercy, and that Jesus Loves me. Do I listen to the men of God? yes! I need their food and miss it so. You will find that you need that food. But I also think God is calling out some people to show us we can stand alone and lean on him. We need to learn it's all about him not being stuck in traditions of man and the way things used to be done. Instead of moving forward and having revivals that can be bigger and better than the men of old, we live too much in the past victory's and not reaching for our own. God is trying to take us further than we've been before, and that takes us on unsteady ground. Like Peter going to Jesus on the water. Keep your eyes on Jesus and what he can teach you.
You will find that you love the holiness after all, and that it's ok not to fight it so much. We get tired. we want something that we can't put on fingers on.
we're seeking more than what we have. God's getting a people ready to follow him not preachers or anyone else. We've lost our vision. It's all about the lost and dying, and able to show compassion.
Hold on to the truth, don't let that go. But seek God and see what or where you need to go or be. I go to preachit.com and get sermons that I down load that keep me feed.
Fast, Pray and seek the things of the Lord! He can and will keep you, if only you will allow him to lead you.
God will give you dreams and visions.
I go to a church that at times it's hard to be there. I feel that is where God wants me. I've tried to leave there, but dont' feel right when I tried. They don't preach the truth. They have the Holy Ghost and that's about it. They know what I believe and where I stand. I now have a brother in the Lord that has come also. He is struggling also with the non-truth. But God has him there also.
I would tell anyone that it's an experience that everyone needs, because it's not. you have to have the truth in you and keep it. You have to be able to be preached against and called a cult, and still be able to stand strong in what is true and not. But it will show you that you can stand anywhere, and the Lord is your best friend.
I hope this helps you in some way.