Hell's Best Kept Secret? Ray Comfort

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes, we can tell them there is eternity to expect, but what the thread is about isn't eternal rewards, but NOW rewards. The fallacy is that we reach them by simply telling them they will be happy, that life will be much better. Just like the flight. It's not the telling them about their possible destination that is the fallacy, it's the telling them that if they turn to Christ He will make your flight just great.

And as any believer knows, this walk since being converted has it's ups and downs.

And when they experience those downs, they feel cheated just like the guy on the flight who is told if he wears this parachute it will make his flight better...when the reality was that the ONLY reason for the parachute was that in the event of trouble he will be secure...the parachute actually was uncomfortable but for the man that is not disappointed by the stories that it will make your flight better, but instead is wearing it because he knows it can save him, he does not mind wearing it.

True and false conversion. True conversion is knowing that Christ died for the ungodly...sinners like you and I and otherwise we were all lost. The fallacy here is not telling them about eternal life...the eternal perks....the fallacy is about NOT telling them WHY they need Jesus...WHY they need to repent and instead focus on TEMPORAL perks...not eternal perks....which is a fallacy

There are NOW and TEMPORAL perks....and some of them are internal peace, joy and love in the midst of suffering and pain...to think there are NO benefits here on earth for being a christian and that all the benefits will only be seen in the after life is simply naive...I can name a gazillion benefits for living as a christian....as an example, if my boss gets irate and flips out, while others are harboring bitterness and get moody, I have inner peace and celebrate in my joy...this is just but one minor example and I can probably write volumes of books showing how I benefit here on earth for being a christian......everyone already understands that life on earth is difficult...that is the obvious...who would be so naive to think that becoming a christian means everything will go your way and the Jesus is a magic jeanie? But to say that wealth and prosperity for a christian is not providence from God is truly not understanding the Bible....does that mean that all christians will prosper in that manner here on earth....absolutely not!!! But when it does happen for a God-fearing and devout christian, surely it is a gift from God.

If I start working at 9am and you start working at 9pm and we're done with work at 10pm and God pays us the same wages for our work....who am I to get jealous over what my Master decides to pay you...should I get jealous over my brother....absolutely not...

I am not saying that we are to teach false promises, but to say that there is fallacy in thinking there are benefits here on earth as there will be in heaven for being a christian is irresponsible...and this does not suggest that there is not suffering for being a christian either....many are and have been killed for the cause of Christ.....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

There are NOW and TEMPORAL perks....and some of them are internal peace, joy and love in the midst of suffering and pain...to think there are NO benefits here on earth for being a christian and that all the benefits will only be seen in the after life is simply naive...

The issue is not and was not whether or not there are temporal perks.

I can name a gazillion benefits for living as a christian

Let's not forget the topic again...it is NOT "living as a Christian"...it's true and false conversion...what we preach to the sinner...how we lead them to Christ.

.

...as an example, if my boss gets irate and flips out, while others are harboring bitterness and get moody, I have inner peace and celebrate in my joy...this is just but one minor example and I can probably write volumes of books showing how I benefit here on earth for being a christian......everyone already understands that life on earth is difficult...that is the obvious...who would be so naive to think that becoming a christian means everything will go your way and the Jesus is a magic jeanie?

To the uninitiated and unexperienced sinner who has not converted yet, he may be that naive. That is why we do what Jesus did. He revealed the persons real need..NEED for Christ. Jesus died for the sinners...not for the unhappy.

But to say that wealth and prosperity for a christian is not providence from God is truly not understanding the Bible....does that mean that all christians will prosper in that manner here on earth....absolutely not!!! But when it does happen for a God-fearing and devout christian, surely it is a gift from God.

Once again, the subject is what to preach to the unconverted unrepented sinner...did Jesus preach "God wants to make you a millionaire?" who said anywhere that wealth and prosperity for a Christian is not providence from God? I don't think you are understanding the point being made. We are NOT talking about Christians. We are talking about the UNCONVERTED. That is what Keith was talking about when he mentioned the fallacy...you keep saying that is what you are talking about but in every post you seem to be talking about those that ARE already converted.

My point earlier was, what about the UNCONVERTED that are NOT poor, that are NOT lonely, that do NOT feel unloved...that are NOT sad...that think they have everything? DO you entice them with things they don't think they need or believe they already have? Or do you address their heart, get right to the heart of the matter like Jesus did with the woman at the well?

If I start working at 9am and you start working at 9pm and we're done with work at 10pm and God pays us the same wages for our work....who am I to get jealous over what my Master decides to pay you...should I get jealous over my brother....absolutely not...

Huh?!?! What does that have to do with anything this thread is and has been about, or what I said?

I am not saying that we are to teach false promises, but to say that there is fallacy in thinking there are benefits here on earth as there will be in heaven for being a christian is irresponsible...and this does not suggest that there is not suffering for being a christian either....many are and have been killed for the cause of Christ.....

Nobody said it is a fallacy in thinking there ARE benefits. It was said it's a fallacy to USE those benefits as some sort of enticement to get someone to suddenly repent and have faith in Jesus. Being saved...we are talking about the UNCONVERTED UNSAVED NOW, Being saved is not about recognizing that Jesus is the perk giver and died so you can have perks.

Having saving faith is the Faith that he SAVES us FROM something...that something is our sins. You save someone when you show them their real eternal need. Their need is not that they need a mansion. They NEED redemption from sin. That is why Jesus died. We are leading them to the SAVIOR...once they meet the savior they realize the perks

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by keith4him

You know your aruguement doesn't agree with scripture, even the unrighteous have a conscience that will accuse them.

Try this again and slowly for the ignorant(me). How does my position conflict with Scripture? If man is allowed his autonomous position, as the traditional 'proofs' allow, it seems to fly in the face of what Paul did in Acts 17 where He declared the truth of the Gospel to the Athenians. He didn't use the cosmological, teleological, etc arguments for the existence of a generic god but he declared THE God of Scripture.

Ray Comfort has stated that he can 'prove' God's existence without ever using the Bible. He is philosophically very naive as any good philosophy prof. could show him and Biblically he dead wrong on this point. (apologetics)

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The issue is not and was not whether or not there are temporal perks.


Let's not forget the topic again...it is NOT "living as a Christian"...it's true and false conversion...what we preach to the sinner...how we lead them to Christ.

.
To the uninitiated and unexperienced sinner who has not converted yet, he may be that naive. That is why we do what Jesus did. He revealed the persons real need..NEED for Christ. Jesus died for the sinners...not for the unhappy.



Once again, the subject is what to preach to the unconverted unrepented sinner...did Jesus preach "God wants to make you a millionaire?" who said anywhere that wealth and prosperity for a Christian is not providence from God? I don't think you are understanding the point being made. We are NOT talking about Christians. We are talking about the UNCONVERTED. That is what Keith was talking about when he mentioned the fallacy...you keep saying that is what you are talking about but in every post you seem to be talking about those that ARE already converted.

My point earlier was, what about the UNCONVERTED that are NOT poor, that are NOT lonely, that do NOT feel unloved...that are NOT sad...that think they have everything? DO you entice them with things they don't think they need or believe they already have? Or do you address their heart, get right to the heart of the matter like Jesus did with the woman at the well?


Huh?!?! What does that have to do with anything this thread is and has been about, or what I said?


Nobody said it is a fallacy in thinking there ARE benefits. It was said it's a fallacy to USE those benefits as some sort of enticement to get someone to suddenly repent and have faith in Jesus. Being saved...we are talking about the UNCONVERTED UNSAVED NOW, Being saved is not about recognizing that Jesus is the perk giver and died so you can have perks.

Having saving faith is the Faith that he SAVES us FROM something...that something is our sins. You save someone when you show them their real eternal need. Their need is not that they need a mansion. They NEED redemption from sin. That is why Jesus died. We are leading them to the SAVIOR...once they meet the savior they realize the perks

Post of the Day ...

[CC1]

Everytime I see the title of this thread I chuckle cause it looks like it is suggesting that Ray Comfort is Hell's best kept secret.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

but what the thread is about isn't eternal rewards, but NOW rewards....

Originally Posted by J-Roc

There are NOW and TEMPORAL perks.........

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The issue is not and was not whether or not there are temporal perks.

Ok, bro, which one is it....now that you are the self-proclaimed evaluator of the issue at hand. In one breath you say the issue it is about NOW rewards and then in the next breath you say it is not.....what gives? I am trying to address your comments but I need some consistency here and not someone that bounces around in their mind.

On a separate note, shall we set up an RC golden calf for Daniel since he has him on his nightstand with incense burning?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Ok, bro, which one is it....now that you are the self-proclaimed evaluator of the issue at hand. In one breath you say the issue it is about NOW rewards and then in the next breath you say it is not.....what gives? I am trying to address your comments but I need some consistency here and not someone that bounces around in their mind.

On a separate note, shall we set up an RC golden calf for Daniel since he has him on his nightstand with incense burning?

I said the issue and never said anything else has always been about converting the LOST and HOW we do that. You seem to keep changing the issue to those that are already converted.

I have been very consistant.

Second you took what I said about temporal rewards NOT being what we preach to the lost to be saved and somehow changed that to have me saying there are NOT temporal rewards at all....

I have been consistant, the topic is what do we preach to the lost and unconverted, not what temporal perks are available to the converted

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I think you guys agree on more than you think.

BUMP .... THIS HAS BEEN AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY

[Praxeas]

What I was saying in context btw, was that the issue of this thread is the unconverted, the issue of what Keith was talking about was was about the unconverted to and winning them through just telling them about the TEMPORAL perks.

In other words you can tell them about the eternal perks, but what their need is is to realize they are sinners and that Jesus died for them. Sure you can tell them the eternal rewards are great, but the issue of this thread is not what good things Christians have....

it's HOW to convert the unconverted

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

what about the UNCONVERTED that are NOT poor, that are NOT lonely, that do NOT feel unloved...that are NOT sad...that think they have everything? DO you entice them with things they don't think they need or believe they already have? Or do you address their heart, get right to the heart of the matter like Jesus did with the woman at the well?

Must I walk you through everything? I already addressed this objection that you raise in my previous post...see below.

Originally Posted by J-Roc

What people need to repent from is from godlessness....yeah, that very subtle sin that goes unnoticed....there are many good samaritans that are good nature people, they volunteer in their community, they give to worthy causes....they are living with peaches and apple pie....there is nothing ugly looking about their life....but when they find out about their separation from God and that the only way to enter eternal life is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ...they realize that their "goodness" and "good samaritan" way of life is not enough to enter heaven....then they need to start making some important decisions!


Too many people think they are good...that the good things they do is enough....we need to reject this self-righteous and self-centered living! We need to look at the cross to understand where our righteousness comes from!


People need to understand and be aware of godlessness....a life lived on ones own rather than centered on Christ.